Author Topic: The Atari Panther  (Read 15805 times)

Offline TL

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2013, 16:37:06 PM »
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Looking at above list then: (of games that would be of interest to myself as a punter)

Stun Runner: Killer title in arcades, what's on offer extra's wise on the Panther version?

There has never been an arcade perfect home console version

Xybots: Pass ta, already played decent enough version on my ST/Amiga. Not paying full price for a tarted up version.

There was never a home console version

Lemmings II: Ok, great game but why should i go for this over the MD/SNES/Amiga version?

It's a popular title - no other reason

Pit-Fighter: old hat now chap, i hear the SNES is getting SF2.

Different types of games, not a massive fan of SF2. Again there was no arcade perfect home version.

Rampart: isn't that out on MD, Lynx etc?.

Yes but its a superb game.

APB: Superb game, but i've played  it to death on C64 and ST.

There was never a home console port (only handheld)

Walker: What have you done with the control scheme? does it work as well as the Amiga version as game been designed around mouse control.

Use a mouse!

Great Giana Sisters:Mario clone, would'nt i be better off going for a SNES if i wanted Mario? Super Mario 4 supposed to be bloody amazing.

It's a platformer, people like platformers

Turrican III is'nt that Mega Turrican on the Genesis? plus have you seen SNES Super Contra? or MD Gunstar Heroes?, plus is'nt the Panther version just a more colourful Amiga port, plus more pricey?

Super Cars III (i'd wager would have been Amiga port as would Blood Money II)

Switchblade III ditto, plus Strider clone, so would have been up again'st mighty Strider on MD

The above games were never on the Amiga, these would be Panther exclusive sequels

Zool 2 vs Sonic series.

Zool was a popular series

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2013, 17:05:47 PM »
I forgot to say in original post:

Skull+Crossbones and Hydra, would not draw me to any format, lol.

Right now bearing in mind, as a future customer, i'm there at home with my ST/Amiga, looking to get into console gaming as well, seems consoles coming back in big way, so i'm looking at the SNES, MD and Panther:


All i'm going to get is the arcade version of Stun Runner on Panther? no extra modes, no extra courses, no track designer? just the very same game designed for arcade play, nothing to increase the life of it?.Hmnn....

Xybots:Does'nt matter this is 1st home conversion, own it on my 16 bit Micro.same applies to APB

Pitfighter:so it's not arcade perfect, niether were the various 8 or 16 Bit Micro games i've bought over the years, plenty of 1 on 1 beat em ups on MD/SNEs it looks like.


Is there a mouse for Panther? find it unlikely Atari would let me use existing ST mouse when they could sell me a console mouse.....

Those Panther only sequels to Amiga games.Yes, i'd love to see them as exclusives, but as a publisher, am i honestly going to ignore the huge user base of the Amiga and make them console only? think of the anger from existing Amiga owners who'd bought my previous games on the Amiga are familar with the series, crying out for more....

Was'nt going to happen was it? If it was, i'd have seen them on CD32 as i knew then i could port to A1200 if i wanted.
or why were'nt they looked at for SNES or MD?

Not trying to be akward, honest, just looking at it in cold light of day.ATARI would not have been able to aquire the exclusives to best selling Amiga games, they just did'nt have the cash to sequre them.If your looking to sell the Panther to your existing ST user base, you cannot really try and sell them same games they have on ST, just bit better looking and sounding, if your trying to sell these games to a newcomer, sure they'll see they are on MD, SNES.

Offline TL

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2013, 17:22:55 PM »
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
All i'm going to get is the arcade version of Stun Runner on Panther? no extra modes, no extra courses, no track designer? just the very same game designed for arcade play, nothing to increase the life of it?.Hmnn....

Who knows though? Seen as it never came out you can't really say that for sure. Personally speaking I would have loved an arcade perfect version of STUN Runner by the same guy who did the Lynx version.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Is there a mouse for Panther? find it unlikely Atari would let me use existing ST mouse when they could sell me a console mouse.....

You mean the same Atari who shipped the same controller with the 2600, 400, 800, XL, XE, XEGS, ST, STe and TT? Not to mention the 7800 controller which just added an extra button and the Jaguar controller that was also the Atari Falcon controller. The ST mouse also works with the Jaguar via an adaptor, in fact Baldies was meant to ship with the ST mouse and an adaptor. There is code in the game as well as other titles like Myst to enable mouse control. Atari are the last people in the world who would make/sell a different controller when they could just re-use an existing design.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Not trying to be awkward, honest, just looking at it in cold light of day.ATARI would not have been able to aquire the exclusives to best selling Amiga games, they just didn't have the cash to secure them.If your looking to sell the Panther to your existing ST user base, you cannot really try and sell them same games they have on ST, just bit better looking and sounding, if your trying to sell these games to a newcomer, sure they'll see they are on MD, SNES.

Well we will have to agree to disagree here, I know you are playing devil's advocate but there is no way you are ever going to convince me that people didn't want to play games like STUN Runner on a home console. This is a time when people were buying consoles instead of computers so, unlike you, they may well not have played these games before. You keep missing my point that I am not saying the Panther could have beaten the SNES and Mega Drive, it wouldn't have even got close. But what it could have done is carved itself a nice little niche as the 3rd place machine in the marketplace with a mix of popular titles, great original titles and lesser known games from other machines. Much like the Lynx did in the handheld market or the Game Cube did in the 128-bit generation. It also would have kept Atari in the spotlight and made the step-up to the Jaguar much less than it was in reality.

Offline Gorf

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2013, 17:58:07 PM »
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "Gorf"
Besides, with the right dev tools all those games from the ST. Amiga days could have been easily ported over to the Jaguar given its 68k and several were as a matterof fact... a lot of good that did for it as we now know today.

In my other post where I mention the games that should have been released with or shortly after the system
are the kind of projects Jaguar needed and many of them...that path was the right path, just too little to late.

Yes but Panther would have been 2 years before Jaguar when those were the games that people wanted and they were not yet old hat.

If that were the case then the CD32 should have been successful...it was released in the same year.

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2013, 18:13:15 PM »
With Stun Runner i'm saying it would have needed those extra features, if it was just a straight port, no matter how arcade perfect, you+i both know how reviewers would have treated it, only to look at how the stunning Lynx version fared.

:-) hold on, it cannot be 'The same controller, just added an extra button' a moddified controller, yes, but not the same one or is this Triggers same sweeping brush syndrome? The Jaguar controller, must have been really difficult choice for Atari:Hmnnn, we've warehouses of thes Falcon controllers just sat here going no-where, Falcon has bombed, wtf are we to do with the games we had started for it and these controllers? design new controllers for Jaguar? nah, keep same socket and we'll bundle em with the console.

ST Mouse might well work with Jaguar via an adaptor (but then i can play PC games using a PS2 controller etc via adaptors), but Mouse support could'nt have been key part of Jaguar strategy, otherwise i'd have expected to seen it in things like Syndicate, Cannon Fodder etc.shipping games with mouse+adaptor would have added how much i wonder to prices?.

From my experience, people were buying consoles to go with thier micros.Most had an ST or Amiga for the European games, plus things like flight sims, turn based strategy, god games etc, things with more depth than typical console fare, then bought a console for the arcade conversions and exclusives.as ACE said so many times, you really needed both, to get best gaming had to offer at that time.

Think your missing my point, lol.ATARI like any other corporation, were not out to have a minor slice of the market, they were'nt after niche, they wanted 'in' on console boom, saw massive inroads Nintendo was making with Sega taking up the slack, on the 8 bit side, hence the 8 Bit micro in a console case 65XE, Commodore tried similar with the C64GS, Amstrad with the GX4000.All failed.

Atari then saw SEGA steal Nintendo's limelight by entering the 16 Bit console arena before them, then saw the SNES doing the buisness and wanted back in, knew others were eying up the market, so wanted to leap frog any competition and follow Sega's approach by being the 1st with a 32 Bit console.

If the publishers you name were to be convinced to support Panther, ATARI would have had to convince them they'd learnt from past mistakes, had the hardware and marketing to make Panther a world class system.

The handling of the Lynx alone, put retailers off the Jaguar.Atari always seemed to be 'in the spotlight', but for wrong reasons..the ST CD Drive, talking of Lynx games that never appeared, the ST console, inviting ST mags down to see Panther once canned, over hyping the Jaguar, proclaiming X, Y and Z were on board.


Mate as an 800XL, Lynx, ST and Jaguar owner, i lost count of the number of times ATARI claimed to be taking things seriousily.As ST owner i saw the format slowly die off with N/A next to games i wanted, as 800XL owner i saw ATARI promise a new wave of software support-never happened so i had to sell 800XL off to fund a C64 purchase.

ATARI would not have had faith from:Publisher, retailer or public-they'd blown it at that time.

I think what your saying is Panther would have given Atari time to work out bugs in Jaguar hardware and raised funds etc etc, some breathing space etc.Maybe make it a 'true' 64-Bit system to compete with PS/Saturn and get out before N64 hit, but i just don't see it happening that way.

Atari would have seen it's flagship 32 Bit system, designed as a wonderous sprite pushing machine, under threat from 3DO, then PS and Saturn and done exactly what they did when Jaguar was under threat from those formats-gone mental and tried to compete on level playing field or got hype machine going for Jaguar, whilst bringing it's release forward, which did'nt help SEGA in long run by releasing Saturn earlier.

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2013, 18:42:34 PM »
Quote from: "The Laird"
Well to counter that (as seems to be my job here :3:)

Let's say this instead, the following companies announce . . . .

Domark/Tengen

STUN Runner
Xybots
Steel Talons
Race Drivin'
Pit-Fighter
Road Riot 4WD
Rampart
A.P.B.
Hydra
Skull & Crossbones

Psygnosis

Lemmings 2
Shadow Of The Beast (Lynx version)
Blood Money 2
Walker
Agony

Thalion

Wings Of Death
No Second Prize
Lethal Xcess
Dragon Flight
A Prehistoric Tale

Rainbow Arts

Turrican 3
XYZ-Out
Starball 2
Great Giana Sisters
Spherical 2

Gremlin Graphics

Super Cars 3
Zool 2
Lotus 3
Switchblade 3
Hero Quest 3

With that kind of line up my only response would have been . . . . .



Think you'd have been 'pushed' to get Psygnosis on board with Panther.They looked at the Jaguar and came away very unimpressed and had no faith in Atari's marketing.

Offline TL

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2013, 18:53:38 PM »
Quote from: "Gorf"
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "Gorf"
Besides, with the right dev tools all those games from the ST. Amiga days could have been easily ported over to the Jaguar given its 68k and several were as a matterof fact... a lot of good that did for it as we now know today.

In my other post where I mention the games that should have been released with or shortly after the system
are the kind of projects Jaguar needed and many of them...that path was the right path, just too little to late.

Yes but Panther would have been 2 years before Jaguar when those were the games that people wanted and they were not yet old hat.

If that were the case then the CD32 should have been successful...it was released in the same year.

It was though, Commodore sold an impressive 100,000 units alone in the UK in the short time it was on the market, it never even got a worldwide release because of the company going bust shortly afterwards.

Offline TL

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2013, 18:55:23 PM »
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Think you'd have been 'pushed' to get Psygnosis on board with Panther.They looked at the Jaguar and came away very unimpressed and had no faith in Atari's marketing.

But they had already signed up for Panther, as reported by the article in The One and by Atari themselves. They also released 2 games for the Lynx around the same time - Lemmings and Shadow Of The Beast.

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2013, 19:00:36 PM »
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Think you'd have been 'pushed' to get Psygnosis on board with Panther.They looked at the Jaguar and came away very unimpressed and had no faith in Atari's marketing.

But they had already signed up for Panther, as reported by the article in The One and by Atari themselves. They also released 2 games for the Lynx around the same time - Lemmings and Shadow Of The Beast.

Sorry, by 'pushed' i meant developing original games like the exclusives you mentioned.Token support to test the water is 1 thing, developing games from scratch for single format very different.Both Lemmings and Shadow Of The Beast were 'household names' so many versions.Blood Money i know appeared on ST+C64 much to amazement of many, but if demand was there for a sequel, i'd have expected to see it on A1200 etc.

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2013, 19:05:37 PM »
CD32 is an interesting 1 and something likes of Amiga Jay is far more credible to talk on than myself.

I know it was big seller in UK, pretty much slaughtered the MCD over here, but taking it to the States, i dunno.

My (very) limited understanding of the hardware in the CD32 was that it was designed in part to make it a lot easier to port games to the Amiga from PC, which would suggest the PC was already a very dominant force in gaming in USA at that time, as likes of Wing Commander, Rebel Assault (planned for CD32 i believe) had come from PC.

PC CD drives becoming common place.would Amiga ports with CD intro and CD music and few more colours, faster speed been enough to tempt gamers away from Genesis, PC Engine, SNES etc?, could'nt see PC gamers buying one.

Offline TL

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2013, 19:16:15 PM »
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
With Stun Runner i'm saying it would have needed those extra features, if it was just a straight port, no matter how arcade perfect, you+i both know how reviewers would have treated it, only to look at how the stunning Lynx version fared.

The Lynx version got rave reviews in the press for the most part so I am not sure what you mean. C&VG in particular raved about it and named it as one of the best handheld games available.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
:-) hold on, it cannot be 'The same controller, just added an extra button' a moddified controller, yes, but not the same one or is this Triggers same sweeping brush syndrome? The Jaguar controller, must have been really difficult choice for Atari:Hmnnn, we've warehouses of thes Falcon controllers just sat here going no-where, Falcon has bombed, wtf are we to do with the games we had started for it and these controllers? design new controllers for Jaguar? nah, keep same socket and we'll bundle em with the console.

The Falcon controller was the same as the Jaguar one except different colours, to match the machine. So your statement is clearly wrong. The Jaguar controller was the same as the Panther one too, once again except for cosmetics.



Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
ST Mouse might well work with Jaguar via an adaptor (but then i can play PC games using a PS2 controller etc via adaptors), but Mouse support could'nt have been key part of Jaguar strategy, otherwise i'd have expected to seen it in things like Syndicate, Cannon Fodder etc. shipping games with mouse+adaptor would have added how much i wonder to prices?.

But it was planned from day one, just Atari were half arsed about it as usual and dragged their heels. I have the proof of this in my latest interviews I have done. Blame Leonard Tramiel for the adapter not coming out apparently.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
From my experience, people were buying consoles to go with thier micros.Most had an ST or Amiga for the European games, plus things like flight sims, turn based strategy, god games etc, things with more depth than typical console fare, then bought a console for the arcade conversions and exclusives.as ACE said so many times, you really needed both, to get best gaming had to offer at that time.

They weren't though, having worked at Game during 93/94 I saw plenty of people who were just console gamers. The UK market had started to move away from micros for games with the PC starting to take over the computer side of things.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Think your missing my point, lol. ATARI like any other corporation, were not out to have a minor slice of the market, they were'nt after niche, they wanted 'in' on console boom, saw massive inroads Nintendo was making with Sega taking up the slack, on the 8 bit side, hence the 8 Bit micro in a console case 65XE, Commodore tried similar with the C64GS, Amstrad with the GX4000.All failed.

But I am not, if Atari wanted to win then they would not have handled the 7800, Lynx, XEGS etc. the way they did. Jack Tramiel just wanted to make money without spending much, he didn't care about market share as long as Atari were in profit.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Atari then saw SEGA steal Nintendo's limelight by entering the 16 Bit console arena before them, then saw the SNES doing the buisness and wanted back in, knew others were eying up the market, so wanted to leap frog any competition and follow Sega's approach by being the 1st with a 32 Bit console.

Atari nearly released the Mega Drive themselves but couldn't come to terms over the deal because they wanted North American and European distribution. Atari always intended to stay in the race so to speak and tech wise they had always been ahead of the curve anyway.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
If the publishers you name were to be convinced to support Panther, ATARI would have had to convince them they'd learnt from past mistakes, had the hardware and marketing to make Panther a world class system.

As I said, the publishers I names had already signed up to support Panther.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
The handling of the Lynx alone, put retailers off the Jaguar. Atari always seemed to be 'in the spotlight', but for wrong reasons..the ST CD Drive, talking of Lynx games that never appeared, the ST console, inviting ST mags down to see Panther once canned, over hyping the Jaguar, proclaiming X, Y and Z were on board.

In the ST years they had a strong relationship with retailers.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Mate as an 800XL, Lynx, ST and Jaguar owner, i lost count of the number of times ATARI claimed to be taking things seriousily.As ST owner i saw the format slowly die off with N/A next to games i wanted, as 800XL owner i saw ATARI promise a new wave of software support-never happened so i had to sell 800XL off to fund a C64 purchase.

ATARI would not have had faith from:Publisher, retailer or public-they'd blown it at that time.

I think we all know Atari made numerous mistakes and never supported their own machines the way they should have, that is why I am making a big deal out of 3rd party support.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
I think what your saying is Panther would have given Atari time to work out bugs in Jaguar hardware and raised funds etc etc, some breathing space etc.
Maybe make it a 'true' 64-Bit system to compete with PS/Saturn and get out before N64 hit, but i just don't see it happening that way.

Yes this is what I am saying and is what Darryl Still said too, as I have already stated several times.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Atari would have seen it's flagship 32 Bit system, designed as a wonderous sprite pushing machine, under threat from 3DO, then PS and Saturn and done exactly what they did when Jaguar was under threat from those formats-gone mental and tried to compete on level playing field or got hype machine going for Jaguar, whilst bringing it's release forward, which did'nt help SEGA in long run by releasing Saturn earlier.

Who knows what would have happened? But I am certain that releasing the Panther would have given Atari a better platform for launching the Jaguar and it seems the ex-boss of Atari UK agrees ;)

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2013, 19:50:48 PM »

Offline TL

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2013, 20:30:38 PM »
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
LOL, you've posted the very review of Stun Runner up here were it's slagged off for being little more than a tech.showcase and we've commented on it in the Lynx review thread, so i'm not digging through for a link when we've already discussed the 'merits' of said review.

One review! The one in ACE said that, all the others raved about it as I said.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
My statement is clearly wrong? eh? the Jaguar pad was NOT designed from ground up for the Jaguar, unlike say Sega's Nights pad or the Playstation pad for PS1, it was designed for Falcon, production lines geared up, dies made etc for plastic moulding (your talking to an ex-engineer here, so i know the lead time on tool/die making, plus the sheer cost).The extra button quote you've included did'nt even relate to the Jaguar/Falcon controller, but point you made about earlier Atari hardware using same joystick, just with extra button.By all means quote, but do so in way that it reflects full quote and it's context, otherwise it's very confusing. :-) Plus the 7800 joystick is totally different shape (casing etc) so ATARI redesigned it more than just 'ahh, put on 2 fire buttons).

No it wasn't! It was designed for the Panther and then the same design was used for the Jaguar and Falcon. Proving MY POINT that Atari liked to re-use designs and would be the last person to make a new one (as you speculated they would). The 7800 controller can be used on the ST, A8, 2600 etc. - this was my point, not the shape.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
But when were ATARI in profit? last i heard around the era of Jaguar launching, ATARI posted losses of over $73.6 million in 1992 which was worrying to developers over here-As Virgin's software manager put it: If it (Jaguar) had a Nintendo or Sega badge nobody would be in doubt that it's an amazing machine'.So that's view of 1 of the key European house's Panther would need, let alone Jaguar.

I cannot find any firm figures right now but I do know that the ST, Lynx, 2600 Jr., repackaged A8 and 7800 turned a profit for Atari. The 1992 loss is no surprise given that the only machine they had on the market that was being actively supported was the Lynx. A company that size cannot survive on one machine, if the Panther had come out as intended in 1991 things may have been different. Think how much money they must have wasted on the Panther development for them to just can it when it was finished and games were even being developed.[/quote]

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Virgin (again) said they were a global company  and it had to lok at global penetration, when it came to supporting hardware and: 'At the moment, who's heard of ATARI in the states?'

Well both Ocean and Virgin supported the Jaguar.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
So again, i fail to see how publishers would have signed up to Panther, when they were competing on global stage and Atari just could'nt compete.

As I have already pointed out, many of these companies were already developing Panther games.



We are going round in circles here so I will bow out.

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2013, 21:13:33 PM »

Offline TL

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Re: The Atari Panther
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2013, 21:22:33 PM »
*SIGH*  :46:

I will reply again.

7800 controllers were designed before the Tramiels came along anyway, Warner were happy to throw money away.

The Jaguar controller port has more pins so you need the adaptor to plug in a ST mouse. There are a number of homebrew games that use it.

Virgin developed, but didn't release, Demolition Man for the Jaguar CD (there is a prototype out there) which was specifically developed for the Jaguar and 3DO. They were also set to release Creature Shock (finished and lost) and a special version of Earthworm Jim.

Jaguar Theme Park (By Ocean) has more rides/amusements than the other console versions and Ocean also had the brilliant Apeshit/Toki Goes Apespit, which was a Jaguar exclusive that was previewed in Edge and reportedly finished. Not to mention other games they were developing with Jaguar in mind like TFX, Water World and Lobo.

 

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