Author Topic: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!  (Read 16776 times)

Offline DreamcastRIP

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2013, 00:54:58 AM »
It sure does suck. At the very least I hope word spreads far and wide about this so nobody else suffers the same fate as Elektronite has.  :-
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Offline Elektronite

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2013, 01:47:55 AM »
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
It sure does suck. At the very least I hope word spreads far and wide about this so nobody else suffers the same fate as Elektronite has.  :-

So true. Some people seem to think that somehow, I must have been 'unreasonable'.

However, the terms that I had to make the game go forward were:

1. Source code
2. Beta Version of the game (allows you to warp to any of the 16 levels)
3. Final Rom
4. Y-bot from Atari Age would verify that the game was complete, and didn't suck balls.
5. Reply by Midnight September 30, 2013.....but he didn't meet the deadline, as usual.

This of course, was too difficult for Mark to accept. So, I have cancelled the game, and I am selling the boxes off.

I look forward to the massive destruction of remaining boxes. Anyone who wants a really cool souvenir of this fiasco, please visit

www.gamesforyourintellivision.com  and click the 'Hover Bovver' link.

Offline Elektronite

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2013, 02:03:30 AM »
Just to be clear, the deadline was 12pm UK time.

Down to 89 sets of boxes.

Get yours before they are all gone! (or ripped up or burned or whatever I come up with)

Online TrekMD

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2013, 02:31:04 AM »
Quote from: "Elektronite"
(or ripped up or burned or whatever I come up with)
I'm sure that will be a very cathartic experience. 

I hope you are able to sell all 100 boxes so, at least, get back some of your investment. 
Going to the final frontier, gaming...


Offline DreamcastRIP

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2013, 02:38:23 AM »
Quote from: "Elektronite"
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
It sure does suck. At the very least I hope word spreads far and wide about this so nobody else suffers the same fate as Elektronite has.  :1:
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Offline zapiy

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2013, 10:23:42 AM »
Sorry to hear this news fella.

I know a few on here would have purchased the game and therefore will be gutted to read this also. Good luck going forward.
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Offline Greyfox

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2013, 10:55:07 AM »
Very sorry to hear of the let down and this really nice game never to be played by anyone..I hate to read about this type of thing and wish you all the success in future products, people know how great you are and this shouldn't dent any of that.

Best of luck.

Offline DZ-Jay

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Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2013, 13:24:56 PM »
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Quote from: "Elektronite"
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
It sure does suck. At the very least I hope word spreads far and wide about this so nobody else suffers the same fate as Elektronite has.  :1:

Wow, really?  Why not let people read the entire transaction and make their own opinions?

It's all out there, really.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.ph ... il-attempt

TL ; DR version:
- there was no time table and no precise definition of milestones, except "half-way."  Mark thought (rather reasonably, I think) it meant half-the features; while William thought it meant the entire game almost finished, with sound and voices, but only 1/2 the levels. Honest misunderstanding.

- William was surprised/distressed the game was progressing so fast, and decided to start production of collateral assets--even though there was really no actual hard deadline.

- Mark asked for the first installment, as agreed upon at the "half-way" milestone; William came with excuse after excuse of how he didn't have the money now, but really I'm good for it, just finish the game and give it to me and I'll give you double of what I don't have right now, trust me.

- Mark got pissed, stopped development and started working on other projects.

- William got pissed and announced the game early with the expectation of adding pressure from the community to have Mark finish the game.

- They discussed the matter, resolved to pay and proceed, but William made it clear that he thought it was completely normal and reasonable for Mark to continue working for free on the word of a man that had just made excuses for not being able to pay; and took umbrage at Mark's reaction.  This did not help diffuse the situation.

- With the first installment finally paid two or three months later, Mark continued progress but slower.  However, William started pressuring Mark to finished by a date that was just mentioned casually some time ago, when progress was quick and happy.

- William started adding requirements to the game in order to fit his heretofore unspoken criteria of quality:  sampled voices with British accents, options menu, 2 player game, high score table, cut scenes, etc.

- During this time, William also made it well known to Mark that he did not trust him, and that he wanted the ROM before paying anything else--even though he had already shown poor disposition to payment on time.  He also made a few comments on how the current transaction was an ordeal, and he didn't want to work with Mark in the future.  Obviously this boosted morale all around.

- William started giving ultimatums:  you WILL give me the ROM by this date; I WILL test it and decide whether it fits my criteria of finished, including all the extra features that we never negotiated but that I mentioned would be cool to have; you WILL fix or add anything I deem wanting; once I'm satisfied, ONLY THEN will I pay you.  Oh, and by the way, I want the source too because (as I have repeated to you already a few times) I don't want to deal with you again.

- William made an attempt at blackmail, whereas if Mark did not do as told, he would go public with a campaign to tarnish his name.  He did.

- Neither side could reconcile by this time.  A mediator  tried to help, and Mark gave the ostensibly finished ROM to the mediator. The community held its collective breath...

Nothing was heard afterward, so we can assume that the mediation attempt failed, and here we are.

It's all there in their original conversations, in their own words.

Offline zapiy

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2013, 15:16:27 PM »
I see it from both sides and it's hugely disappointing to see such promise thrown away. 

What I will say, there is always two sides to a story. The communication between both parties needed to be better for their business needs, sadly it's to late now so let's let both parties move on.
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Offline DZ-Jay

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Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2013, 15:51:03 PM »
Quote from: "zapiy"
I see it from both sides and it's hugely disappointing to see such promise thrown away.


Agreed.  It was a very promising project, and we were all looking forward to it.

Quote from: "zapiy"
What I will say, there is always two sides to a story.

Agreed again. Which is why I exhort people to read the transaction conversation and reach their own conclusions rather than just assuming one party is a victim and the other a retched thief.

This was a failure all around, but it has plenty of unprofessonal behaviour.

Quote from: "zapiy"
The communication between both parties needed to be better for their business needs, sadly it's to late now so let's let both parties move on.

Yes, this works both ways, it includes stopping the rallying cries of victimization and martyrdom of Elektronite.  It's over, so lets move on.

Offline zapiy

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2013, 18:21:05 PM »
I always look at the full facts, but i cant get away from the fact that there was lots of bad communication from both sides.. Thats life, hell it happens in real life so why not on the http://WWW..

What i want to bash out on here is i have a great rapport with you and Willy.. Please both of you keep this thread clean..  :113:
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Offline DreamcastRIP

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2013, 18:57:05 PM »
Quote from: "DZ-Jay"
Wow, really?  Why not let people read the entire transaction and make their own opinions?

It's all out there, really.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?/topic/217049-Elektronite's-blackmail-attempt

Yes, really. Anyone is welcome to go read that thread on AtariAge should they wish to. I don't know why you're seemingly inferring that I have some sort of power to let or 'not let people read the entire transaction'. I also don't care for your inference there that by having given my opinion it somehow means I am obstructing others from forming their own opinions on the matter.

As for the story "all" being "out there" in that thread you've linked on AtariAge then that's a matter of opinion. In my opinion, anyone who believes that the whole story is covered on AtariAge is naive in the extreme.
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Offline Elektronite

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2013, 23:46:51 PM »
Dz is a Groovy Bee sycophant, and I will cover his post in due time.

Meanwhile, I am too busy packing up boxes and overlays.

I WILL post my letter that I intended to post (The so called 'blackmail letter') that shows throughout, I was not dealt with in good faith by Mark Ball. It uses facts from my PM's that demonstrate for one thing, that Mark Ball lied about there being no completion date for Hover Bovver. My letter will show that  this guy was a difficult wanker, and if there is any reason that the game isn't coming out, it can be blamed on him. It can be verified if you take the time.

A fine tactic he used making an accusation of 'blackmail', and 'supporting' it with reams of Gifs of our PMs that if one took the time to read carefully was nothing of the sort. His sycophants come on and pull out parts where I was getting upset at his bad behavior and hold that up as me being unreasonable.
 
I negotiated the wage for writing this game based on getting the source code, stated or not. The extra money was meant to encourage him to write a game that he really had no interest (or anyone) in writing.

I wanted voice in the game, and knew that this would be extra work. The voice I got back (from video evidence) was utterly unacceptable. I refuse to release the game with that voice. So, there is no need for me to pay for it with that voice.

It was necessary for me to have the source code to swap out the voice and fix bugs.
 
None of my programmers have given me ANY trouble giving me source code or for that matter, regular development update roms. Why does Mark have to be so difficult? Why does everything have to be a battle with him? On what did he base his fear that I was going to run off and pirate his game? I've paid all of my programmers. I  have a reputation. A good one for delivering product. If I started ripping off programmers, I wouldn't have any write games for me.

This secretive nature of his and demands that I pay for a 'surprise' game were so out of order.

Mark has given me so much grief over this game, I frankly didn't want to have to deal with him in any way ever again.

He is a busy guy, and has a lot of people breathing down his neck for the games that he took money for on Atari Age. He should be using his time to finish those games, and not dealing with bugs or changing voices in my supposedly finished game.

Given his delays and gross over estimation of completion dates, I didn't want to have to rely on him to make any changes, even reasonable ones ever again. He has totally disregarded my release schedule, and didn't seem to give a shit that I've had 10,000 dollars tied up in this game since May.

I didn't want to have to wait for him to swap out that robot voice he put in. (And, he never actually said he would) Therefore, I needed the source to do it.

I gave him my word that I would not significantly change the game. (Through Albert) However, even people who write books have their books edited by publishers sometimes. If I was going to make wholesale changes to the game, I certainly wouldn't have paid him so much to write it in the first place! His fear that I would change it was as irrational as his fear that I would pirate his rom.

So, if we were going to make a deal, I needed the source code. I needed the Beta rom. I needed the final rom.

I needed Toby from AA to play the game  and let me know that:

1. It had 16 levels.

2. It had 2 player support.

3. It had sound effects, music, high score, intermission, game over, title etc.

4. It didn't suck balls.
 
If it had all of that, I was going to  send $4000 US as per our agreement, plus 3 copies of the game as agreed. I gave until September 30th, 2013 for him to decide. Of course, he ignored my demands, so I cancelled the game.

I don't see why these details should remain private, as all of my dealings with him have been made public.

Fair warning for others foolhardy enough to try to deal with that guy. 

Offline DZ-Jay

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2013, 00:24:00 AM »
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Quote from: "DZ-Jay"
Wow, really?  Why not let people read the entire transaction and make their own opinions?

It's all out there, really.

http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?/topic/217049-Elektronite's-blackmail-attempt

Yes, really. Anyone is welcome to go read that thread on AtariAge should they wish to. I don't know why you're seemingly inferring that I have some sort of power to let or 'not let people read the entire transaction'. I also don't care for your inference there that by having given my opinion it somehow means I am obstructing others from forming their own opinions on the matter.

As for the story "all" being "out there" in that thread you've linked on AtariAge then that's a matter of opinion. In my opinion, anyone who believes that the whole story is covered on AtariAge is naive in the extreme.
It's not the "AtariAge thread" that I was referring to, but the screenshots of the conversations between two parties, which shows how the deal was wrought, then soured.

I wasn't inferring anything of you, I merely exhorted others to form their own opinions, as you have done.

Quote from: "Elektronite"
Dz is a Groovy Bee sycophant, and I will cover his post in due time.

Thank you for calling me names.  Is that part of your professionalism?

I wonder if you know what the word means.  I don't defend Mark so much as I argue your position.  And if I do defend him, it has nothing to do with gaining his favour.

I find the entire thing unsavoury from both sides, but I only hear how Elektronite has been victimized, and you pushing this very dirty laundry into the public eye from the beginning.  I object to that.

The game is cancelled, its a pity, but lets move on.  Do we have to hear on every turn how much money you lost and how wronged you feel you have been?  Oh and by the way, please stop the threats.  Lets just stop this.

I won't address this topic any more, I wish you do the same.  It's time for the head of Elektronite to graciously practice some of that professionalism.

Offline DreamcastRIP

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Re: Hover Bovver - New Intellivision Homebrew!
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2013, 00:24:40 AM »
Quote from: "Elektronite"
Dz is a Groovy Bee sycophant, and I will cover his post in due time.

I personally aren't in a position to comment fairly either way. The only observation I'd make that anyone falling for the nonsense propogated by the chief offender, plus that of his cheerleaders, in all of this would appear to be extremely gullible or have an agenda to serve. That's merely my opinion, of course.

Quote
(The so called 'blackmail letter')

I saw the post to which you're referring and promptly laughed out loud at what a nonsense it patently was. The act of a desperate man trying to obfuscate by making sh*t up so to try diverting the attention away from the very obvious fact that he had repeatedly failed to answer your straightforward questions properly. Risable.

Quote
His sycophants come on and...

Welcome to AtariAge, lol!

Quote
I don't see why these details should remain private, as all of my dealings with him have been made public.

Quite. You have nothing to hide and are being wholly transparent. Those with something to hide or an agenda to serve will hate you for it. The truth hurts for such people because it only serves to expose them. Watch his cronies start deserting him like rats abandoning a sinking ship once things are clear for all to see.

Quote
Fair warning for others foolhardy enough to try to deal with that guy.

Precisely. You're doing the retro gaming community a great service by outing the person concerned for what he has done. You'll get hated on by people for it but when all is said and done they're just a small vocal minority with an agenda to serve. The majority of sensibly minded folk will see their nonsense for what it is. Don't let the fucktards grind you down and be aware that many on that forum are well aware of such cliques that rally around whenever one of their own is called out for shenanigans. Just because folk don't post out of fear of being personally abused, bullied and victimised by certain people doesn't mean folk don't see what's happened. Keep the faith!  :1:
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