Dreamcast Vs. PlayStation 2

[Rogue Trooper]

I know exactly what went in to make Timesplitters and the job Free Radical did to make and I rewarded them by buying it. I liked it a lot myself.

However the game had no 60hz option or any type of flicker filter. Either of these would have improved the look no end as the US version was a lot nicer looking than the PAL game.

I'm not the one who bitches about the jaggies on the early games.

But then many high profile PS2 games were Pal 50 Hz only.You said in your earlier post Sony really should have pushed for 60 Hz much harder from day 1, but how? it was entirely up to the developer to include the option, were likes of Square really going to re-code say FFX just for those in UK etc with a 60 Hz TV?.

Sony were hardly in a position to be doing any pushing as at the time developers were screaming out for help from Sony just to get things like full screen Anti-Alising running on the hardware.Oddworld developer alone got so frustrated with sheer amount of resources they had to put in just to get basics like this running on PS2, they jumped ship to the Xbox.
Hideo K.was very public about how dissapointed he was with actual performance of PS2 compared to what Sony had promised, how he+team dreaded going into work each day, wondering just how they were going to achieve the quality they wanted.


Fact is, even the most talented PS2 developers like Konami+Team Ico were having to work with PS2 limitations, be it forcing the image into a lower res mode or getting the PS2 to upscale before out putting.

The PS2 did things the DC could never handle in games (Radial blur in Burnout 3 etc, Bloom in MGS 3, Shadow Of The Col.etc) which made it's games look better, but everything came at an expense.

Bizarre Creations 'maxed-out' the texture memory on DC MSR and still ended up with flickering textures and jaggies in places and they tried things like mip-mapping etc to cure it, but this made things worse, so if developers were having issues on a platform with the amount of Vram+main Ram the Dc had, the PS2 must have been a nightmare.

[Rogue Trooper]

Without getting into techno-babble, it's really as simple as the Dreamcast with Power VR Card and lot of Ram VS Playstation 2 and Graphics Synth. and limited Ram.

The Dreamcast's Power VR card has hardwaretexture compression, which meant developers could take a 20-25 MB image, squeeze it down to 4-5MB, store it and unpack it on the fly when needed.

The PS2 GS simply did'nt have this ability, so developers had to limit an image to say 10 MB, keep it stored until called for then 'juggle it' onto the Graphics Chip's 4 MB, it's a reason many early PS2 games had repeated textures and why the buildings in things like RR5 look very similar.Sega encountered issues with Ram in early stages of Dreamcast development and increased Ram avaiable, IF Sony had done the same? PS2 games would have looked better.


Graphical data needs to be stored and sorted prior to being dumped on screen, Sony must have known 4 MB would have caused headaches, but i'd assuming they were reiant on the high data transfer speed to get around that-fine once developers are used to coding for a system that way, but a nightmare in the early days.

Early PS2 games also rendered internally at 640X240 then hardware upscaled them to 640X480, faking like this was fine to a degree but created jaggies.

As for Sony's claims of 75 Million Polys per sec, at peak performance, later down graded to 66 Million.

What they mean is:PS2 IS capable of rendering 66 Million polygons a sec, IF it's doing nothing else (no game logic etc) and said polygons are flat-shaded (no lighting or texture mapping) and all the same shape and size. 

So not game related at all.

[dcultrapro]

A PS2 via an LCD looks shit, as do ALL  of the other SD consoles but a bit less so.

you say that and I would normally be inclined to agree with you but whenever I connect my old console via RGB Scart to my LCD and now LED they look fine, I mean they don't look as horrible as people make out, I think I will do some investigation into this myself to see how the consoles do on my new LED in terms of colour bleed etc

I don't care about the jaggy polygons I think a console from 99-01 is gonna have them regardless, what bothers me is the clarity of the picture, the vibrancy of the colours and the refresh rate etc so I'll be interested to see how they all look, I might even do a comparison or special feature vid to see how they all look, be pretty interesting I think

[Rogue Trooper]

A PS2 via an LCD looks shit, as do ALL  of the other SD consoles but a bit less so.

you say that and I would normally be inclined to agree with you but whenever I connect my old console via RGB Scart to my LCD and now LED they look fine, I mean they don't look as horrible as people make out, I think I will do some investigation into this myself to see how the consoles do on my new LED in terms of colour bleed etc

I don't care about the jaggy polygons I think a console from 99-01 is gonna have them regardless, what bothers me is the clarity of the picture, the vibrancy of the colours and the refresh rate etc so I'll be interested to see how they all look, I might even do a comparison or special feature vid to see how they all look, be pretty interesting I think

Exactly! i expect low poly counts, jaggies etc compared to todays hardware, it's a given, but when my PS2 via component is giving a far WORSE picture for exactly the reasons you describe, despite using the highest quality output and in cases like The Getaway+Primal, in HD mode, yet my Dreamcast is giving a picture which is fine via SCART (ie i've no real need to buy a VGA box per say) and yet my Gamecube is displaying such a poor quality image via SCART, that i's rendered useless, i'm wondering just WTF is going on.

Looks like sega used higher quality components etc in terms of video out and encoding than Sony or Nintendo.Have heard people say there's more colour bleed on PS2 480P than 480i due to way PS2 hardware renders it's video and decent comparison video might help explain what's going on.

The Dc just plugs in, image is fine, PS2 tried altering TV settings, ensured hardware set up correctly at PS2 dash so it's outputting in correct Component etc, yet i cannot get a picture quality i want, the Xbox by comparison works fine, so it's def.related to the PS2 hardware and not poor coding.

[Rogue Trooper]

Found the lower quality visuals (compared to the sharpness of the DC version) of PS2 Silent Scope to effect gameplay when i had my PS2 hooked up to a SD TV, it was a bloody nightmare trying to pick out the bad guys, so i had to wait until game highlighted them, thus loosing valuable time, plus the dual shock's were far too sensitive for this type of game.

Unreal Tournament ( a PC+DC fav.of mine) also suffered from murky visuals compared to the DC version (mind you DC version had smoother frame rate as well and impressed even in 4-player split screen mode).

Crazy Taxi suffered on PS2 as well, jaggies, lack of translucency on taxi windscreens etc.


On the flipside, Primal on PS2 (60 Hz, HD support etc) was a fantastic showcase for where the PS2 hardware really came into it's own:The light and shadow effects as your torchlight lit tunnel walls just blew me away.


On subject of launch games, word within the industry had it that developer 'Dreamfactor, who'd done Ehrgeiz and Tobal on PS1, was forced to severly cut back on it's ambitions for PS2 'The Bouncer' in order to hit PS2 launch, as early footage of the game showed a lot more promise than what the final version had.

[Rogue Trooper]

On subject of 60 Hz support, Sega for all it's claims of Dreamcast being the start of 'A new dawn in European gaming' not only let us down with Pal VF3, but when ever you asked them about future Dreamcast releases getting 60 Hz option they'd reply with 'We cannot cannot speak for 3rd party developers' or 'That has not been decided at this point' if it were their own releases.

Sony seemed happy to follow suit with PS2 releases.

[davyk]

What I find odd about PS2 50Hz only games is that a PS2 doesn't output PAL60 with the games that offer 60Hz - it is NTSC - so how could it have been any effort to include 60Hz assuming it was already done for the NTSC regions?

Also re DC - some titles that are 50Hz only support VGA which if I am right makes that irrelevant?

[Rogue Trooper]

Always found it hard to get my head around developers, looking at likes of Capcom, who were great supporters of the DC, they point blank refused to alter/improve Playstation board based arcade games to take advantage of DC's extra power in an interview with C+VG.

They also said in said interview:

'Even if Sony releases the Playstation 2 and it's more powerful than the dreamcast, it won't make any difference.The average player won't notice.'

Thing was though Capcom, all Sony needed to do was release some bizzare technical claims about Polygon count and emotions etc and average 'player' bought into that and waited for PS2 expecting Toy Story quality visuals etc and even when PS2 was having worse looking versions of DC games, PS2 still outsold it.

[dcultrapro]

so I did some comparisons on my 42" LED tv between Dreamcast RGB Scart and the VGA connection as well as seeing how the PS2 looks on the big tv as well though I only have Scart (not sure if its RGB) and standard RCA/Svideo cable. They both actually look really good on my new tv, I was surprised by the quality of the picture for both.

here is my verdict on each of the setups I tested

Dreamcast VGA box to 42" LED:

not as great as I expected, upon close up inspection when playing Headhunter I could see a strange pattern when the screen had black graphics or colour on display, but all in all it looked ok. I may have to consider buying a different VGA box or its possible my DC is getting old. Has anyone seen this effect?

see it here:



Dreamcast RGB Scart to 42" LED:

Fantastic, by far the best picture I've seen my Dreamcast display. The colours are crisp and the picture is crystal clear thanks to the 60hz

PS2 Scart to 42" LED:

doesn't look to bad, the colours don't bleed too badly but it is still pretty visible and it seems to me as though there is still a kind of film over the graphics, like they are softened or just not very sharp, I filmed some footage from both consoles and the DC just looks sharper overall no matter how I connect the devices. I'm sure if I had component or VGA or RGB (I think my scart IS RGB but I'm not 100% so I'm acting as though its not for now in case I'm wrong later) it would probably look better.

I will put together a comparison video of my findings soon, its not conclusive because I doubt I have seen the PS2 at its highest output but either way... the comments from Nakamura about old consoles looking terrible on new flatscreen tvs is a slight exageration, maybe its just his opinion based on his experiences which I is totally fair enough, but from what I've seen the picture is infinitely better on my 42" LED so I'd say its pretty much just a myth

[Rogue Trooper]

so I did some comparisons on my 42" LED tv between Dreamcast RGB Scart and the VGA connection as well as seeing how the PS2 looks on the big tv as well though I only have Scart (not sure if its RGB) and standard RCA/Svideo cable. They both actually look really good on my new tv, I was surprised by the quality of the picture for both.

here is my verdict on each of the setups I tested

Dreamcast VGA box to 42" LED:

not as great as I expected, upon close up inspection when playing Headhunter I could see a strange pattern when the screen had black graphics or colour on display, but all in all it looked ok. I may have to consider buying a different VGA box or its possible my DC is getting old. Has anyone seen this effect?

see it here:



Dreamcast RGB Scart to 42" LED:

Fantastic, by far the best picture I've seen my Dreamcast display. The colours are crisp and the picture is crystal clear thanks to the 60hz

PS2 Scart to 42" LED:

doesn't look to bad, the colours don't bleed too badly but it is still pretty visible and it seems to me as though there is still a kind of film over the graphics, like they are softened or just not very sharp, I filmed some footage from both consoles and the DC just looks sharper overall no matter how I connect the devices. I'm sure if I had component or VGA or RGB (I think my scart IS RGB but I'm not 100% so I'm acting as though its not for now in case I'm wrong later) it would probably look better.

I will put together a comparison video of my findings soon, its not conclusive because I doubt I have seen the PS2 at its highest output but either way... the comments from Nakamura about old consoles looking terrible on new flatscreen tvs is a slight exageration, maybe its just his opinion based on his experiences which I is totally fair enough, but from what I've seen the picture is infinitely better on my 42" LED so I'd say its pretty much just a myth

The only last gen console i've found terrible on LCD out of PS2, G.C, Xbox and DC is the Game Cube.

Red's look awful, whites turn a sort of sour cream colour, rendering snow sections on Rogue squadron utterly unplayable.

Xbox via component, DC via Scart are great.PS2 via component workable if nothing else.

What PS2 games you trying? it might be a case of games rendering at 1 resolution, PS2 upscaling the image before outputting it to TV and then your TV upscaling it again.

[dcultrapro]

yeah I was thinking it might be something to do with the games but wasn't sure. I have the following PS2 games:

sony playstation 2:
armored core 2 another age
armored core 3
auto modellista
chaos legion
cold fear
crimson sea 2
crimson tears
dragon ball z budokai 3
drakengard
drakengard 2
god of war
god of war 2
killzone
king of fighters maximum impact
king of fighters maximum impact 2
marc ecko's getting up: contents under pressure
shadow of the colossus
soul calibur 3
soul reaver 2
tekken 5
Tokyo Extreme Racer
transformers

sony playstation 1:
abes oddysee
armored core
Castlevania SOTN
Colin McRae Rally
driver
evil zone
final fantasy 8
ghost in the shell
Gran Turismo
medievil
metal gear solid
simpsons wrestling
spawn the eternal
street fighter ex plus alpha
tekken 3
tai fu: wrath of the tiger
tomb raider 2
wild 9

like I said they don't look too bad on my HDTV, I just ordered a cheap Component cable for the PS2 to see how it looks via that, something about putting the progressive mode on for some games that do support that option, but for those that don't WHAT IS the best way to display the picture? Is it still the component cable?

its sooo confusing lol, some of the ps2 games support progressive, some dont, I guess that means 480p as opposed to 480i... right? I just wanna find the best overall way to get a good/alright picture from it. Should I set my tv aspect ratio to just scan rather than 16:9?? I assume if the tv stretches the picture it won't look great either

What do you think about that picture from the DC VGA picture? is it my DC going down the toilet or a shitty VGA box or just my tv messing up the picture?

[Rogue Trooper]

yeah I was thinking it might be something to do with the games but wasn't sure. I have the following PS2 games:

sony playstation 2:
armored core 2 another age
armored core 3
auto modellista
chaos legion
cold fear
crimson sea 2
crimson tears
dragon ball z budokai 3
drakengard
drakengard 2
god of war
god of war 2
killzone
king of fighters maximum impact
king of fighters maximum impact 2
marc ecko's getting up: contents under pressure
shadow of the colossus
soul calibur 3
soul reaver 2
tekken 5
Tokyo Extreme Racer
transformers

sony playstation 1:
abes oddysee
armored core
Castlevania SOTN
Colin McRae Rally
driver
evil zone
final fantasy 8
ghost in the shell
Gran Turismo
medievil
metal gear solid
simpsons wrestling
spawn the eternal
street fighter ex plus alpha
tekken 3
tai fu: wrath of the tiger
tomb raider 2
wild 9

like I said they don't look too bad on my HDTV, I just ordered a cheap Component cable for the PS2 to see how it looks via that, something about putting the progressive mode on for some games that do support that option, but for those that don't WHAT IS the best way to display the picture? Is it still the component cable?

its sooo confusing lol, some of the ps2 games support progressive, some dont, I guess that means 480p as opposed to 480i... right? I just wanna find the best overall way to get a good/alright picture from it. Should I set my tv aspect ratio to just scan rather than 16:9?? I assume if the tv stretches the picture it won't look great either

What do you think about that picture from the DC VGA picture? is it my DC going down the toilet or a shitty VGA box or just my tv messing up the picture?

Component is still the best way to connect PS2 to HDTV (i'd be tad wary of cheaper cables, betting they are'nt triple-shielded like the more expensive ones) but even games which DO support Progressive scan are'nt going to look amazing, due to PS2 Native Resolution being so low, a feature made even worse on games like ICO where game forces PS2 into an even lower Res.or MGS 3 where image is already upscaled by PS2 hardware before it's pumped out to the tv.

All Progreesive scan is doing, is drawing the entire screen image in 1 hit or 'pass', where as interlaced draws every other line in the 1st pass, fills in missing lines on the 2nd pass.

Basically an HD ready TV has it's native resolution of 720P and PS2 has it's native resolution of games, so once your TV recives the lower quality image from the PS2, your at the mercy of your TV's upscaling hardware.

The HD Ready TV is trying to fool your eye by a form of Anti-Alising when it recives the PS2 video signal, it can either strech 2 existing pixels to assume the size 3 pixels would occupy or it'll generate a 3rd pixel, in between 2 existing ones, created by merging the colours of the 2 pixels (3DO hardware used this trick for it's '640X480' resolution).

Even with Component, odds are you'll be messing around with your tv's contrast and sharpness settings to get best ossible piccy.

PS2 games seem to vary in native resolution used, so i'd wager your going to find a lot of variation in results.

IF your looking to judge lag, i believe Guitar Hero 2 on PS2 has a built in video test (under the video options).

Re:the DC VGA box.Have heard the Blaze one has issues (piccy drops out), but the offical ones seem rare as hens teeth.What make is yours?.

[dcultrapro]

this is the VGA box I have

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sega-Dreamcas ... 4170de7876

it is either an unmarked brand or something VERY generic. I am tempted to buy a new one, so I was wondering, when you have your DC connected via VGA (if you do, obviously) do you see the effect I was getting when you use VGA on your HD tv? I am just trying to work out if its my box or DC or if its just the way it will look on LCD/LED screens and I just have to get used to it?

[Rogue Trooper]

this is the VGA box I have

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sega-Dreamcas ... 4170de7876

it is either an unmarked brand or something VERY generic. I am tempted to buy a new one, so I was wondering, when you have your DC connected via VGA (if you do, obviously) do you see the effect I was getting when you use VGA on your HD tv? I am just trying to work out if its my box or DC or if its just the way it will look on LCD/LED screens and I just have to get used to it?

I'm not a VGA user myself, although friends are, so i'm just going on experiences they've had.

Apparently some models of Samsung TV's throw up issues when using VGA, colours seem off, etc.Your TV does'nt have anything like a game mode you can turn off to see if that helps?

EDIT:

Did a bit of digging on your behalf, lot of Samsung TV users and few Vizo users report image issues, but where as you get dots (artifacts?) they seem to  get faint  'patterns' on screen, white lines (horizontal in some cases, vertical in others, or both in worse case scenarios), no-one seems to know why and it seems more to be the brand of TV than brand of VGA adaptor.

[dcultrapro]

ok cool, thanks for taking the time to do that mate! Though I actually have an LG, not sure if I mentioned Samsung before but if I did it was a mistake!

I don't use anything like a game mode normally, I know what you mean though as some people I know have Samsungs and they have mentioned this before but "Game Mode" on an LG effects nothing important, only contrast, brightness and sharpness and all those general settings, it doesn't effect frames or ratios or anything like that