Author Topic: The Sega 32X  (Read 26449 times)

Offline 108 Stars

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2013, 14:49:55 PM »
First of al it was AitD 1 that was announced for 32X, not 2. A game that came on floppy disks on PC, perfect fit for the 32X.

You overestimate the importance of CD-ROM; CD-ROM doesn't mean much, it was hype with little behind it. What the space was mostly used for was music and FMVs, the gameplay of most games fits perfectly on cartridge. 32XCD games should have never been released, the 32Xwas capable of all that was required for gaming. The CD tech had no effect whatsoever on in-game graphics.

Secondly maybe UK mags complained about the 32X resolution, but I never heard it. The fact is: The majority of games on PlayStation, especially 3D games also ran in 320x224 pixels. The exact MD resolution. Very few games like Soul Reaver or on Saturn Sega's own games used higher res. Strangely nobody complained anymore.

Sega's software was hit or miss, sure; I agree on Shinobi for example peaking with Revenge, but then again Golden Axe III pummels its predecessors gameplaywise, it is only flawed in the visual department. Same goes for SoR 3, it's great, the only problems were the questionable art design and the music. Not nearly as much of a let-down as people say it was, it was just that the genre is old news. Wonder Boy got better with every incanatio imo, as much as I love Dragon's Cures, Wonder Boy in Monster World is a huge step forward in my eyes, and MW IV one of the 3 best MD games ever imo. Eternal Champions was a franchise that would have been more successful in the west than Virtua Fighter, which always was incompatible to western audiences. Great story idea and art design, violence, good gameplay... EC was the middle ground between SF II and MK.

Sure Sega was supporting too many systems; that's why I say it was okay to finally drop SMS and GG, and MCD. The MD and 32X though should have been supported. No chance in hell Sega would have been worse off than with the Saturn at that point.

The Mega-CD was dead, a misconception from the get-go and not up to the tasks needed for the MD to live on. MCD lived on 2 markets only with success: US and UK. Look at Germany, where even Sega magazines warned consumers not to buy it because of lacking support from Sega and below average good-to-bad-game ratio. MCD was stigmatized as just a platform for FMV games and a few Core Design games.
The 32X was needed, it offered 3D graphics and more colors. Think Donkey Kong Country, outselling all 32-bit games of the time; that's the kind of stuff Sega could have offered on the 32X, but with higher quality. 64 colors were not enough to rival it, Sega tried and failed, but in 256 plus with higher res and much higher processing power than the SNES and any of its add-on chips had... Sonic could have been one to topple the DKC giant on the 32X.

What we can agree on is that games are needed; but again, Sega had to set the example. Sure the Mega-CD got some support with Sega also offering little themselves, but look at the kind of support; Final Fight was a joke at that point in time. A port of a 1989 arcade game in 1993, similar situation to DD on Lynx; and at the same time SNES had FF2. Capcom brought their lower profile series with an old part to Mega-CD, while the Mega Drive got the cream of the crop with SF II. Core Design was a Euro dev, by default low profile in the console market of the time, not with the means to get an expensive Nintendo license. They helped the Mega-CD, having the familiar 68 000 CPU they knew from the Amiga and the scaling capabilities the games needed; no big surprise, they could not pick. Their support was the Mega-CD's saving grace. But where were Konami and the other big shots? They brought the high profile stuff on cart.
The moment the manufacturer does not offer good support 3rd parties will not commit either.

We will not come to an agreement here.
The Mega-CD was the mistake, the 32X was the good idea imo.

The
Systems owned: Atari 2600, Lynx, Jaguar, NES, SNES, N64, GameBoy, Master System, Mega Drive, Dreamcast, Game Gear, PlayStation, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Xbox, Wonderswan

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2013, 15:21:32 PM »

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2013, 15:28:35 PM »
Also CORE used far more than just the 68000 of the MCD, they were doing twin or parallel processing on hardware, long before many Japanese/American teams had even recived their Saturn dev.kits and were scrathing their heads trying to figure it out, so they deserve a lot more credit than press gave them.

And:UK VF:SEGA 'beamed' images of the characters onto the Westminster buildings (Big Ben etc) with slogan 'comes Out fighting', so VF was a big thing for SEGA Europe.

Plus right up until Saturn was released over here, there were reports in UK press that Saturn would have a 64 Bit Graphics chip (C+VG), use 2X newer SH-3 chips to match Playstation (Edge), claims SEGA did nothing to rectify.

MCD/Konami:i forgot the 2 Lethal Enforcer games, 1st of which i know retailed cheaper than the cart version.

MCD CD space, used well for games like Lunar, Shining Force CD, Heart Of The Alien (Out Of This world I+II), Rise Of The dragon, Shadow Run, Dungeon Master, Eye Of The Beholder, Monkey Island, wing Commander (which also used the sprite scaling of the hardware), Lunar etc etc.

Would we have seen these on cart in the form they appeared on MCD? i doubt it.

Offline 108 Stars

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2013, 18:19:30 PM »
Streaming from CD was utterly unimportant at that time. The 32X could not handle the amount of textures that would require streaming anyway. Developers wanted CDs for one reason, because they cost only a fraction of cartridges. You could squeeze the complete track from Ridge Racer, with everything into the 1MB RAM of the PlayStation, take out the CD and play on. That was far beyond what textures the 32X would have ever displayed. Streaming was only meaningful much later in the era.

Don't forget I am talking about the 32X as a hardware to bridge the time between MD and a late 1996 Saturn, not a hardware to focus on for the entire generation.

The press proclaimed the 32X underpowered and dead because they knew the Saturn was right around the corner. Which would not have been the case had the Saturn been delayed what I made the whole point about. It was no magic to see it's dead when you know the next system is coming so soon.
The Mega-CD was indeed already called a fossil by the time it was released. It's an entirely different level from the 32X.

Demand for the Jaguar may have been high at one point, but the end result is that the 32X sold as much in its 1 year lifespan as the Jaguar in 3.

Coverage on VF was big because it was a hype from Japan, hugely successful there. It never gained any mass appeal in the west though, to complicated and cumbersome. Eternal Champions on the other hand was a success even without the big coverage, had Sega done a next gen version it would have sold very well. VF was soon dead in the west. VF2 was the last big VF for Sega in the west, released on a dying Saturn and technically impressive. VF 3, 4, 5... nobody gave a damn. Sega could have beamed VF on Big Ben if they wanted, it just never caught on. Don't mix up hopes with real success. The other way around: MK was a huge success but failed miserably in Japan. Sometimes games just don't work with all audiences.

Core: It doesn't matter if they used parallel processing, in the end it was still the 68 000 they knew well. Core was given a lot of credit, and rightly so because they made the only impressive MCD games, but it doesn't change that they were small and had no impact like big Konami, Capcom or Sega titles cold have had.

Konami: Again, two low profile games. The important ones they brought on cart.
All the MCD games you name beside Wing Commander would have been possible on cartridge easily if you cut the CD audio and FMVs. Lunar is embarrassing from a technical standpoint.

Also those reports of the enhanced Saturn, like all the details of the Giga Drive are just rumors and have never since been confirmed by former Sega employees What's the value of rumors? There are rumors before the launch of every new generation, it's worthless. That Sega of America believed in the 32X is not a rumor, you can read the interviews on Sega-16. If the same people who made the MD a success believed the 32X was the way to go, I trust them.
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Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2013, 18:49:47 PM »
well, as i said MCD used CD pull off pre-rendered data as did later hardware such as PSone.32X tech builds on that used by MCD, so i'd assume it was capable of handling similar if not more data.assests can be a lot more than just textures.

For 32X to be a credible 'bridge' until SEGa had a Saturn that could match or better the Playstation, it'd need to be able to compete with 3DO at very least, so again it comes back to fact it'd need to either use the MCd for the larger games or have cut back versions on cart.

OK, lets assume all press had to worry about was the 3DO, Jaguar and Playstation.32X technology remained the same, now given how quickly the UK press declared the Jaguar and 3DO yesterdays news and 32X was'nt even up to Saturn as we saw it tech, how do you think 32X would have fared, it would still be seen as:underpowered, a stop gap, doing nothing more than buying SEGA time etc.The chips used in 32X were chosen as they had been around for ages, hence were cheap, readily avaiable, but already dated.

VF (which i'm not a fan of) was constantly used by SEGA Europe as a key 'weapon' from the comes out fighting, to the ECTS Saturn reveal, to the rumoured add-on for Saturn for VF3, to launch DC game, hell UK press gave fact VF4 was coming to PS2, not Xbox huge coverage, was there demand from magazines or Joe public in UK for eternal champions on 32X/Saturn or DC? i never heard a whisper and avid reader during all those years, got magazine collections etc, nothing there.

Core:sorry, but it does matter that they were used to twin processor tech, as it made them the ideal people to get the best out of the complicated Saturn hardware, they'd had a head start, they moved on from just using a single 68000 CPU a la Amiga, only to look at MCD Thunderhawk compared to the Amiga version.Filled polygons VS texture mapping, Mode 7, sprite scaling etc, all using the 2 CPU's and MCD sprite hardware.

Konami's Snatcher, low profile though, seriousily?

Just how big a cart do you think those MCD games would have needed? FMV etc aside, they would'nt be cost effective to produce, hell they'd make MD Virtua racing look like VFM.

I've read interviews on or in:
 
Sega-16, EDGE, Maximum, RG, Gamestm, etc etc.All say the decision was made not to continue with idea of developing a stand alone enhanced MD, but to go with the add-on, as far better chance of selling it to the installed user base.Some interviews say there was no friction between SEGA USA+SEGA Japan, some say they knew 32X was a 'dead duck', but they were afraid to speak out as it was seen as bad to be negitive about work of your fellow departments etc, not seen anything that honestly belived in 32X.

Some digs at other versions of Doom (Jaguar version having no music) are there, along with explanations why 32X Doom turned out way it did (small cart, rushed to market) etc, but faith in the product, no, bizzare claims in the early ones, then honest reflection on looking back yes.

 

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2013, 19:18:34 PM »
Think your missing the point re:Core-they were getting far better results from SEGA hardware (at that time the MCD) than SEGA themselves were coming up with, so they would have been ideal partners for this world where 32X is a bridge until Saturn is ready, sure they'd have gotten most out of 32X as well.The size of the company is meanigless, it's what they do with the hardware, SEGA produced far more FMV dross, a Sonic game on Cd that was worse than cart versions, yet CORE managed to deliver technically stunning and fantastic to play games.I mean we are talking a SEGA here that cocked up 2 attempts at Daytona USA on Saturn, that let Time warner handle Virtua Racing, that had no idea what to do with the MD, and set about pouring resources into CD, DSP chips, enhanced MD's, home VR, portable MD etc etc.Sometimes think SEGA are the last people i'd have put faith in, in terms of delivering the games i wanted, i'd much rather they gave the hardware to the talent-Darxide-most graphically impressive game on 32X, did it come from SEGA/Capcom or Konami? no..UK developer.


CORE seemed to know the MCD hardware a LOT better than most of SEGA's in house teams, mentioned the dire Heavenly Symp., the slow, jerky Mode 7 esq bonus stage on Sonic CD, but there was also Joe montanas NFL, sure it had sprite scaling and rotation, but it was slow and jerky.SEGA's own games often did more damage than good to the system.



Tom Kalinske talking about 32X Doom: '..on other systems there's no sound and i can't imagine a game without sound.It'd be like watching a movie with the sound turned off'-so he slags off another version, does'nt get the facts right (game has no music, but sound FX a plenty) and makes no attempt to explain why that version has link-up, Sega's version does'nt.In same interview he claimed 3DO sales in USA were only 100, 000, The 3DO company responded saying it was 200,000.so faith is 1 think, but he'd been better off explaining the merits of 32X rather than trying to get digs in at it's rivals.

Core design on MCD and Thunderhawk:

we used Polygons 1st for the buildings...dropped them because it was too slow, sprites are a lot faster and they look more impressive...sprites are just a screen routine and Polygons?, well we could have just taken the code out of the Amiga version.

The machine (MCD) can do sprites and texture-mapping, sprites and texture-mapped ground are a lot better than polygons.

...SEGA wanted to use the product to sell the MCD and Polygons just does'nt use the hardware at all.so the idea was'nt to do a cart on a disc, we wanted to do something that could only be done on MCD.

It's (the MCD) a very nice machine, it's got 2X 6800's, you don't run out of cartridge space, the 2 CPU's are running in Parallel (on Thunderhawk)...there's an extra graphics chip, also running in Parallel, the only restrictions are the colours'


So i'd say they moved a lot on from the 6800 Amiga/ST days.

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2013, 20:25:22 PM »
The point about the rumours is that SEGA did nothing to stem them or clarify them, thus you got more customer confusion as just what was on the way.

SEGA seemed to have gone from 1 main product (The MD) with an entry level machine (the MS) and a colour handheld, to all of a sudden, reports of new hardware coming in from all directions:MCD,Giga Drive, Mars,CDX, Home V.R, EDGE 16 Modem, SVP chips.. you name it.Punters left wondering just what the hell they'd need to be buying next, just to play games they wanted, before it was so simple, you bought the cart you wanted for your MD, no concern over system requirements.

SEGA should have learnt some what from  ATARI, who kept upgrading the ST to compete with the Amiga, users found they needed double-sided drives, extra memory, ohh look here's a new STe, got the blitter and colours, plus better sound chip of the Amiga, but good chance lot of games won't work on it or take advantage of it, never mind the STe, here's the Falcon, oh and here's the Lynx and did we mention the Panther?

Offline 108 Stars

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2013, 21:11:47 PM »
Honestly: The Mega-CD was antiquated from the day it was born.
It seems UK press and German press handled it very differently, the machine was buried here pre-release.

Having been involved with MD homebrew I talked to quite a few knowledgeable people in terms of MD, and yes, Lunar, EotB etc were no problem to fit on a normal cart. Believe me or don't, I am certain I can trust those people. EotB and the likes came out on cart on SNES and Lynx even.

Snatcher was low profile, it may be a cult classic now, but it was totally unimportant back then and sold badly.

Sega promoted VF, press liked VF, but it doesn't change that it was never very popular here. Great ratings don't equal great sales, people rather played Toshinden, Tekken and Soul Calibur. Today VF has become download only. Eternal Champions sold like hot cakes in the US at least, it was more accessible and a good seller for Sega. Not like SF II or MK, but at least it had more potential to click with the masses here in further incarnations than VF had.

 the polygon streaming like Silpheed: That's just FMV, it's a movie. No hint of real time, it's just an FMV like any other with ships on top. That is no good reason for CDs, FMV games are junk.

I also know that Core interview... what were they supposed to say when promoting their new game? And of course names can be more important than the game quality, Contra, Castlevania and Street Fighter had 10x the selling power of new IP from small devs like Core.

All the devs who say they knew 32X was just a short intermezzo also knew Saturn was coming soon; that changes things. Had Mr Kalinske had his way, Saturn would not have come so soon, entirely different situation. And you can't blame him for not knowing the details of 3DO or Jaguar games, he's no gamer but a CEO.

But really, this leads nowhere, I am just completely on opposite terms with you on this. ^^ Mega-CD was Sega's mistake, dated hardware by the time of its release, 32X was the way to go imo. We won't change each others mind and everything's been said. :)
Systems owned: Atari 2600, Lynx, Jaguar, NES, SNES, N64, GameBoy, Master System, Mega Drive, Dreamcast, Game Gear, PlayStation, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Xbox, Wonderswan

Offline Rogue Trooper

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #68 on: May 19, 2013, 18:53:52 PM »
Quote from: "108 Stars"
Honestly: The Mega-CD was antiquated from the day it was born.
It seems UK press and German press handled it very differently, the machine was buried here pre-release.

Having been involved with MD homebrew I talked to quite a few knowledgeable people in terms of MD, and yes, Lunar, EotB etc were no problem to fit on a normal cart. Believe me or don't, I am certain I can trust those people. EotB and the likes came out on cart on SNES and Lynx even.

Snatcher was low profile, it may be a cult classic now, but it was totally unimportant back then and sold badly.

Sega promoted VF, press liked VF, but it doesn't change that it was never very popular here. Great ratings don't equal great sales, people rather played Toshinden, Tekken and Soul Calibur. Today VF has become download only. Eternal Champions sold like hot cakes in the US at least, it was more accessible and a good seller for Sega. Not like SF II or MK, but at least it had more potential to click with the masses here in further incarnations than VF had.

 the polygon streaming like Silpheed: That's just FMV, it's a movie. No hint of real time, it's just an FMV like any other with ships on top. That is no good reason for CDs, FMV games are junk.

I also know that Core interview... what were they supposed to say when promoting their new game? And of course names can be more important than the game quality, Contra, Castlevania and Street Fighter had 10x the selling power of new IP from small devs like Core.

All the devs who say they knew 32X was just a short intermezzo also knew Saturn was coming soon; that changes things. Had Mr Kalinske had his way, Saturn would not have come so soon, entirely different situation. And you can't blame him for not knowing the details of 3DO or Jaguar games, he's no gamer but a CEO.

But really, this leads nowhere, I am just completely on opposite terms with you on this. ^^ Mega-CD was Sega's mistake, dated hardware by the time of its release, 32X was the way to go imo. We won't change each others mind and everything's been said. :)

Happy to leave it there as again, was'nt looking to change your mind or anyone elses, it was just a discussion, interesting to note how hardware differed on both sides of the Atlantic, seems it went widely off track somewhere.

Only thing i would say, you can hardly say there's any difference between CORE promoting their MCD game and SEGA saying they have faith in 32X, both are trying to sell product.

If a CEO or any other key player is going to diss the competition in public, it's common sense to make sure they know what they are talking about, they should be media savy enough to know media loves to run with soundbites.

Offline 108 Stars

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #69 on: May 19, 2013, 19:09:44 PM »
I like a lively discussion once in a while, I just want to avoid us two repeating ourselves over and over and spamming the thread, lol. :)
Systems owned: Atari 2600, Lynx, Jaguar, NES, SNES, N64, GameBoy, Master System, Mega Drive, Dreamcast, Game Gear, PlayStation, PlayStation 2, PlayStation 3, PlayStation Portable, Xbox, Wonderswan

Offline TL

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2013, 17:25:27 PM »
I just came across this, a brilliant program for the 32X that lets you play Atari ST YM and Sinclair ZX Spectrum AY music.

[align=center:qdnhlg0p][/align:qdnhlg0p]

Quote
The ROM should run fine in Kega Fusion if you don't have proper hardware to run it on. Or you can watch a youtube capture here.

Most of the songs were taken from the STSound YM collection; the rest being Spectrum tunes that I converted from .ay to .ym (there might even be a CPC song or two in there).

Source code is included. Download here: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=62175

[align=center:qdnhlg0p]Shymmer (Sega 32X YM player)[/align:qdnhlg0p]

Offline TrekMD

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2014, 17:05:25 PM »
[align=center:y5wp5foc]Game Sack - The Sega 32X[/align:y5wp5foc]
Going to the final frontier, gaming...


Offline onthinice

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2014, 17:28:51 PM »
I love the 32X for what it was, a cheap alternative for 32-bit gaming.

Offline TL

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2014, 21:03:32 PM »
[align=center:2jgp26m4]Sega Genesis 32x Console Review - Leftover Culture Review[/align:2jgp26m4]

Offline 64bitRuss

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Re: The Sega 32X
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2014, 22:54:21 PM »
Nice review there. I think his opinion at the end there is right on, most gamers aren't missing anything by not having a 32x. He's not slamming the system, and he certainly enjoys having it around, but there isn't much enthusiasm on his part to dump a bunch of money into it, and I certainly sympathize with that.

It's a nice little niche console to collect for, I think, and has some interesting titles to check out, if you are patient and savvy with how you acquire the games. Honestly, the collector part of me would love to have a complete 32X collection. I think the uniformity of the packaging makes for an interesting setup on the rack.

 

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