Retro Video Gamer

It's a topic that seems to flare up every so often around here, so I think maybe we need a thread for it.

Let's lay down some ground rules, folks: This thread isn't about finding ROMs. Nobody is asking where to find ROMs. Not me, not you, not anybody. Besides, I don't need to find ROMs. I have my sources.

(http://www.colourbox.com/preview/1699786-264836-man-holding-a-glowing-earth-in-his-hand-earth-image-provided-by-nasa.jpg)

ALL THE WORLD'S ROMS ARE MINE TO DO WITH AS I SO DESIRE.

So, let me speak seriously here. Yes, I emulate. Frequently. I don't see anything to be ashamed about it, and while I admit it has its flaws, I feel like it shouldn't really be considered bad, per se, to actually do it.

Some people say real hardware is better. That's subjective, really. I do enjoy using real hardware, when I'm actually able to. It does provide a very different feeling than playing something in front of your monitor, and I can appreciate that. Blowing on catridges and watching the gentle curve on an old-fashioned CRT gives me "the warm fuzzies" for sure, not going to lie. But the thing is, for me, personally? It's just not feasible.

For one thing, I'm working with a very limited amount of space. I keep all my gaming stuff in my room, and I don't even have enough room as it is to comfortably place my Nintendo 64, which I actually do own. Now factor in all the other stuff I emulate frequently, including the Amiga, and you can see where I'm coming from, hopefully.

And then there's the legality aspect of that, and... well, that's where things get a little more muddled. All I'm going to say on this front is that I'm really not any sort of angel when it comes to this sort of thing, but there a few times when I think it's justified. Some games are hard to find or way more expensive than they should be, and the IP owners probably ended up getting swallowed by Activision, if you're lucky. Personally, I feel that if nobody's going to end up making money from the game, I don't see any real harm in that sort of thing. If it ends up on Nintendo's Virtual Console or Good Old Games, though, then yes, then you should actually go and spend money on it. But that's just my opinion, so feel free to take it as you wish.

Also, I feel that, in some ways, while it might not be the original experience, it's actually an improvement on the original experience. Take the Amiga. I don't have to swap disks. I don't have to buy new parts. I don't have to own several models. I can just tweak the settings as I like and be ready to play whatever I like, with no hassle.  Heck, sometimes emulation even improves a game. Look at all the translation patches all over the internet for Japanese games, for one example.

I'll say now that emulation isn't some kind of wonder technology that solves all problems. For one thing, it doesn't always work. I bought another N64 a long, long time after I sold my original. (A while back, sadly, I had to sell ALL my old gaming stuff to pay for computer parts.) I really appreciate having the original system, because in that case, you just can't play N64 stuff on your computer in a way that's comfortable. And then there's the Jaguar, which seems will forever remain a mystery to me. I always make sure to never use emulation to replace the stuff I already own. Even if N64 emulation stopped being terrible for anything beyond Super Mario 64, I can promise you I'd still keep mine.

That, and I feel like emulation's a great way to actually LEARN about games. If you don't know what something is, play it! What, do you think Retro Gamer is going to tell you anything useful about it? I've learned everything I know about European computer games from emulation. So when I say stuff like Superfrog is really not that good you guys, Sonic isn't about collecting stuff, etc. etc. I can explain why I feel that way because I'm able to play it in a mostly hassle-free way.

So that's just how I personally feel about the whole thing. You're free to disagree, I'm just saying that I don't think it's as much of a cardinal sin as I feel like it's made to be around these parts. For me, emulation's a supplement to real physical media, not a replacement. A sidekick. But it's still damn helpful.

Emulation is a nice way to quickly test out games.  When I traveled often for work, it was a way for me to enjoy retro gaming without the hardware.  I don't use it as much right now but, with a good emulator, it is something that can definitely be quite enjoyable to do.  Emulation also is a way to play games that are not NTSC standard for me.  Any games that were PAL only releases, can easily be played through emulation. 

I'm not a fan of emulators.

First, I don't think they're an accurate representation of the way a game was designed. There are always some games that aren't emulated properly and have timing issues, graphics glitches, audio glitches, etc. Many games just don't play 'right'. But, even for the games that are emulated perfectly, older games were designed for 4:3 CRTs... playing on an LCD alters the color palettes, pixel aspect ratio, removes the scanlines, and nullifies any of the dithering and masking tricks that were used to optimize the video quality for CRTs. The games just don't look 'right'. Adapting to a different controller/button layout can alter the experience too... esp for systems that had unique controllers. Some games just don't feel 'right'.

There are some cases where emulation actually offers an improvement over the original hardware though... like the many HD upgrade compilations on PS360, or the N64 emulator that not only upscales but also allows hi-res texture pack plug-ins. While I usually prefer the original platform, these enhanced emulations are basically creating unique, improved variations of older games without any real code re-write.

For some of us older gamers, there's also the nostalgia factor and attachment to playing on an actual system... usually the same console that we purchased decades ago when the system was new. Not a knock against emulation, but it's another factor in sticking with original hardware.


The legal aspect of emulation is definitely more muddled and would probably send this thread in the wrong direction, so I'd only note that many older games are still being sold on the Nintendo VC or various retro compilations. If you want to emulate a game that's available for purchase on a current system, the developers/publishers deserve your support.

I think emulation has its place.  For example, I'm never going to own, or likely ever even have to opportunity to play, an AdventureVision.  These tabletops now sell for thousands of dollars, and are rarely even seen for sale, yet I can try (more or less) what one was like for free.  I've tried out this system via emulation, and although I can appreciate the hardware, I would never pay that kind of money for one.  Thanks to emulation, I know that I;m not missing out on much.

I always prefer the "real deal" over emulation, but there are times when it's a very useful and affordable substitute. 

> "If you want to emulate a game that's available for purchase on a current system, the developers/publishers deserve your support."

I think that's a fair point.  If something is currently available, then of course you should support the developers by purchasing a legal copy.  However, using emulation to run 20+ year old ROMs that aren't available by any venue except buying from eBay speculators... well, I can't see how that harms the developers in any way.

I agree, emulation has a place thats for sure.. Personally i do a little bit of both, i tend to be careful as to what games i use and the legalities of it all are indeed very muddled.

Hundreds of free homebrew for a start...

How would we play games like

Solid Gold for the Amiga

Solid Gold (//http)

and Jet Pilot Rising for the SNES

Jet Pilot Rising (SNES Homebrew) Gameplay of the First Level & Download! (//http)

Quote from: "zapiy"How would we play games like

Flash devices or buy them!

I only really use emulation for grabbing screenshots to use for my articles, for that it is excellent. But apart from that I am not a fan, as Tom said a lot of emulation is still a bit dodgy and is far from perfect. I was very surprised recently to find how shaky ColecoVision emulation was with many games being glitchy and others not working at all, and that is an 8-bit machine! Also, as others have said, it just doesn't feel the same. Playing ROMs on a PC is an empty and soulless experience, doesn't even compare to using real hardware.

Quote from: "ls650"I think emulation has its place.  For example, I'm never going to own, or likely ever even have to opportunity to play, an AdventureVision.  These tabletops now sell for thousands of dollars, and are rarely even seen for sale, yet I can try (more or less) what one was like for free.  I've tried out this system via emulation, and although I can appreciate the hardware, I would never pay that kind of money for one.  Thanks to emulation, I know that I;m not missing out on much.

I always prefer the "real deal" over emulation, but there are times when it's a very useful and affordable substitute. 

> "If you want to emulate a game that's available for purchase on a current system, the developers/publishers deserve your support."

I think that's a fair point.  If something is currently available, then of course you should support the developers by purchasing a legal copy.  However, using emulation to run 20+ year old ROMs that aren't available by any venue except buying from eBay speculators... well, I can't see how that harms the developers in any way.

I 100% agree with this, if anything it keeps sellers more honest, without emulation they would just make more money, did they make the game or have they re-paid a royalty since finding it in a boot sale and haggling down the price?
 

But these are two different subjects.

The Legality is not being discussed its the effectiveness of emulation and its great testament to our old systems that the most modern of machines still can't in all cases copy exactly the way a game plays on the real thing. i.e. SID emulation on VICE for pi needs a tweak and MAME needs the CPU to be overclocked to keep up with some 6 coin-op button games like MK or Street fighter II.

If it wasn't for emulation I wouldn't be here in a retro gaming forum. I was re-introduced to the consoles of old through emulating an Atari VCS on a Pentium PC back in the mid Nineties, and then Sega after that. Because of that step I started to look at getting the consoles and games for the machines I loved before.

I still use emulation, and original consoles and both have their places in the Retro scene. As for the nostalgic "feel" you still can't beat playing Sonic The Hedgehog on a 3 button Megadrive controller, or Circus Atari with a paddle, that just isn't right with a mouse on a pc.

I enjoy emulation for a lot of the reasons mentioned above. The Commodore 64 is great for emulation and any game that requires a password save is also ripe for use. For example, Kings Bounty on the Mega Drive/Genesis has a horrid password save and I prefer to play it through emulation.

Some of the downsides are the hard to button map controllers and I have found emulators that have had viruses attached to the programs. Nothing like trying to play an old system and get your computer infected at the same time. Won't mention names but the systems were for Nintendo and Sony.

Now I have a question.

Is it still emulation if you use the real hardware and a multi cart or flash device? Or is this another grey area, that should be left alone?

Quote from: "onthinice"Now I have a question.

Is it still emulation if you use the real hardware and a multi cart or flash device? Or is this another grey area, that should be left alone?

no why? a flash device is faster and you may miss the operations required to start a game (like inserting the disc etc) but finally the software runs on the real hardware.

My 5-cent here: due to implementation of all the new stuff into existing devices the machines do not have the same look and feel anymore and it reduces the amount of left "intact" systems which finally leads to abondon of the system (it is a simple calculation). In case of Atari Homecomputer the dual Pokey dramatically reduces the existing base and all these ugly switches and LCD within the housings renders them useless for history purpose.  Currently I try to buy as much Atari Homecomputers equipment as possible and undo all the crap, repairing the housings and mainboards, bleeching and assembly them. After that it will be offered on ebay hopeing none of the fool guys catch them for adding the crap again (my blocking list is very very long here).

What about FPGA designs? Here the whole hardware is emulated on another chip. It is real hardware but not with NOS nor orginal chips. They are finally emulated on hardware base. Is this

Quote from: "onthinice"Is it still emulation if you use the real hardware and a multi cart or flash device?

Well you're not emulating anything, so no.

Personally this is my method of choice. Not a fan of emulating systems, I even have a 486 because I don't like DOSBox but I don't care that other people do.

The only people who mind flash cartridges/emulation for old systems are collectors who don't want you playing their rare (or just over-priced) games/systems.

Quote from: "onthinice"Is it still emulation if you use the real hardware and a multi cart or flash device? Or is this another grey area, that should be left alone?

No, it's not emulation but it is a grey area due to putting illegal roms on the flashcart.
Actually it's not even a grey area!

Unless you are playing free homebrew games or titles that have been made public domain (in the case of the Vectrex for example)

Quote from: "Vyothric"The only people who mind flash cartridges/emulation for old systems are collectors who don't want you playing their rare (or just over-priced) games/systems.

Ah, there's another benefit to emulation, right there. Making hoarders suck it, because they're not the boss of you.

I'd honestly say that using a flash cart is sort of a kind of emulation, to be totally honest. It's true you're using the original hardware, but you run into a lot of the same problems... questionable legality, the occasional incompatibility, and so on. It's not quite the same thing, sure, but it falls into that kind of area. Not that using a flash cart is bad, mind you.

Quote from: "The Laird"Unless you are playing free homebrew games or titles that have been made public domain (in the case of the Vectrex for example)

Absolutely, but nobody's ever shelled out for one of these to just play homebrew stuff. 

Quote from: "dot.fyre"

Quote from: "The Laird"Unless you are playing free homebrew games or titles that have been made public domain (in the case of the Vectrex for example)

Absolutely, but nobody's ever shelled out for one of these to just play homebrew stuff. 

I have.

I bought my Lynx Flash Cartridge and Atari Max cart purely for playing homebrews. Not a single commercial ROM has been loaded onto the Lynx one at any point.

Quote from: "The Laird"

Quote from: "dot.fyre"

Quote from: "The Laird"Unless you are playing free homebrew games or titles that have been made public domain (in the case of the Vectrex for example)

Absolutely, but nobody's ever shelled out for one of these to just play homebrew stuff. 

I have.

I bought my Lynx Flash Cartridge and Atari Max cart purely for playing homebrews. Not a single commercial ROM has been loaded onto the Lynx one at any point.

It's not just homebrews, there are plenty of unreleased betas/protos, fan translations, and rom hacks that are fun to play on real hardware. There's also the convenience of loading all of the games that you own onto a menu driven multicart. Flash carts are awesome... even for people who aren't romz hoarding 'thieves'.

Very true actually, I did play the Lode Runner prototype on my Lynx flash cartridge.

I've made my view on emulation pretty clear in a similar topic on RG recently so I won't type out a repeat essay here but the crux of my argument is that emulation is stealing in no uncertain terms BUT as far as crimes go, it really isn't what I would call 'serious' and I have no beef with gamers who emulate.

Personally I don't do it as I like original hardware and software only. I have modded/chipped consoles but only to play imports. The only non-official game I own on a CD-R is a compilation of all PS1 Net Yaroze games and that isn't something that exists as an official release (if it did then I would have a copy on my shelf and the CD-R would be in the bin!).

The only emulation I do is on MAME with unconverted arcade games. Publishers are missing a big trick because I would willingly pay for 'proper' digital versions of games like Revenge of Death Adder, Ninja Baseball Batman and Violent Storm.