Retro Video Gamer

This came up the other day on here and i've heard it on various other forums over the years, that by taking games into the mainstream with the Playstation, game deigners got far less creative.

I beg to differ, as a Playstation owner at the time, i saw the likes of:

MGS (very creative use of the PS1 hardware for 'Boss Fights'), Devil Dice, Parappa The Rapper, Ape Escape, Legacy Of Kain/Blood Omen, I.Q, Sheep, the Tenchu Series, Tomba, Jumping Flash 1+2, Trap Gunner, Power Diggerz, N20, Skull Monkeys, Oddworld, IS:Internal Section (another great looking tunnel shooter in Stun runner mould), Team Buddies, Parappa The Rapper, Carnage heart, Warzone 2100, Silent Hill etc etc.

People often say Sony only interested in 3D, yet Rapid Reload, Worms, 2 Xcoms, numerous Retro compilations from Capcom, Williams etc.

Plus as mentioned elsewhere, you can trace the origins of Loaded back to the SNES, Alien Trilogy to the Mega CD and Tomb Raider to the Jaguar CD.

By time Playstation 2 was ready to be replaced, it'd seen things like:

Ico, Shadow Of Rome, Gregory Horror Show, Bombbastic, Blood Will Tell, Psychonauts, A Dogs Life, Strech Panic, Ring Of Red, Fahrenheit, Ever Blue 2, Herdy Gerdy, SOS, Mister Mosquito, City Crisis, Killer 7, Kill.Switch, Fantavision, God Hand, Mark Of Kri, Gitaroo Man, Mad Maestro, Frequency etc etc.

I'm NOT defending either platform here, just very curious as to why Sony is singled out, where as Sega/Nintendo+Ms all escape somewhat untouched in comparison.

I'm of the thinking that it was ONLY due to the massive installed user bases of PS1+PS2 that a lot of developers were willing to risk creative ideas on the machines.

Over to you good folk.

I wouldn't say the end of creative games as such no.

But did change the industry for the worse.

It made gaming mainstream, faceless corporate and devoid of identity. It was started by the PS1 and pushed even further with the PS2.

Now we are left with two faceless corporations with no personality, heritage or significant legacy in gaming as the two big players.

I would give anything to get rid of Sony and MS and replace them with Sega and Atari, two companies with a real history, identity and personality that lived and breathed the video games industry.

Don't really have much to say about the Playstation. The only games you listed that I've played are Blood Omen, Worms and Silent Hill. Didn't play Blood Omen or Worms on the Playstation and I hated Silent Hill.

To me, the PS1 was the start of 'modern gaming' and dumbed down videogaming to reach mass market appeal. I don't really blame Sony, but they were definitely the lead platform in the transition.

Linear, slow paced, story driven, save point to save point gaming with heavily integrated cinematics. yawn! 6-8 hours of game, then it's over. Games with no scores/high scores = limited replay value. Limited skill required because you can always reload from the last checkpoint until you reach the next one. Endless sequels until the franchise is dead... recycling the same game engine with new levels/cinematics.

Modern gaming is great for business. 'Finish' a game and rush out to buy something else. Sequels appeal to the fanbase. Using the same game engine for 3 or 4 games cuts development time and costs.

There were plenty of exceptions, esp on the PS1, but I definitely point to Sony as the transition platform that brought popular gaming from pick up and play, arcade style, go for a new high score, etc. to playing through the latest ____ game.

Quote from: "The Laird"I wouldn't say the end of creative games as such no.

But did change the industry for the worse.

It made gaming mainstream, faceless corporate and devoid of identity. It was started by the PS1 and pushed even further with the PS2.

Now we are left with two faceless corporations with no personality, heritage or significant legacy in gaming as the two big players.

I would give anything to get rid of Sony and MS and replace them with Sega and Atari, two companies with a real history, identity and personality that lived and breathed the video games industry.

Interseting post, i'm still not yet seeing exactly what sony did that Sega or Atari etc did'nt.Sega and atari indeed have history, but as a buyer of their devices, i have to say it's a very mixed history.

With the Lynx, Atari had THE best hardware, but starved it of software, lot of promises, but too little, too late.Something Sony is doing again with Vita, not having learnt from PSP.

With Sega, MD was amazing and i bought into the MCD hype, £270 for a machine that hand better sprite abilites than the SNES (yet needed extra colour palette hardware), yet Sega  fit to pump FMV ridden dross onto a platform that could only initally do what? 64 colours on screen in FMV.Madness.Then there was the plans for Saturn+Neptune...2 models of same hardware, ended up with stop gap 32X.

Dreamcast had 1 shot at getting good headway before PS2 launched and who do Sega Europe put in charge of it? someone who's background is in making+promoting Pop Video's.DC was a fantastic piece of kit, but the online potential was squandered, as was the marketing budget-I bought my DC at launch and i still rate it higher than the PS2 as a piece of hardware, but it was painful to see how Sega handled it.

Quote from: "tomwaits"To me, the PS1 was the start of 'modern gaming' and dumbed down videogaming to reach mass market appeal. I don't really blame Sony, but they were definitely the lead platform in the transition.

Linear, slow paced, story driven, save point to save point gaming with heavily integrated cinematics. yawn! 6-8 hours of game, then it's over. Games with no scores/high scores = limited replay value. Limited skill required because you can always reload from the last checkpoint until you reach the next one. Endless sequels until the franchise is dead... recycling the same game engine with new levels/cinematics.

Modern gaming is great for business. 'Finish' a game and rush out to buy something else. Sequels appeal to the fanbase. Using the same game engine for 3 or 4 games cuts development time and costs.

There were plenty of exceptions, esp on the PS1, but I definitely point to Sony as the transition platform that brought popular gaming from pick up and play, arcade style, go for a new high score, etc. to playing through the latest ____ game.

Again, very interesting post, but as of yet, no-ones really touched apon what the Playstation did that only it did.

Linear games like Myst, 7th Guest, Burn Cycle, Star Wars:Rebel Assault, Mystery Mansion, Night Trap, Sewer Shark could be found on CD based platforms like CD-i/ MCD/3DO/PC CD, hell 7th Guest been found on SNES CD.Things like Wipeout? well you've got F-Zero on SNES or Gran Chaser on Saturn, High Octane on PC.

For myself, the real Sony dumbing down came with PS2:Eyetoy+Singstar reaching out to non-gamer, no need to worry about controllers, wave your arms or hold this Mic etc, from a buisness point, totally under standable, but look at where it went from there..Kinect, Wii, Move....

regarding Sony this is what I posted in the other thread, maybe more suited there. I wouldn't say I hate Sony any more just from my perspective a lot of things changed as a direct result of their legacy, as per below comments:

-------------------------

RT: My comments regarding the Playstation were more aimed at its aggressive and successful campaign to make a video games console a cool piece of kit that every kid HAD TO HAVE... instead of the geeky frowned upon hobby that it had always been up until that point, or at least that's the impression of the hobby that I always had when I was a kid.

as I said in another post I fully concede that Sony has done no more or less in terms of dodgy dealings etc this generation, if anything Microsoft are causing more harm than good themselves. And obviously the PS2 was the first major sign that Sony was giving in to its financial urges, they saw the publics response to the Playstation and dollar signs chi-chinged into their eyes as they plotted and schemed on how to cash in with the PS2 and I tip my hat to them their plan worked out BRILLIANTLY. They fooled the masses who loved the PS1 into thinking the PS2 was a must buy, even though, IMHO, it was a piece of utter garbage, and they ran laughing and skipping all the way to the bank.

I wasn't saying the Playstation 1 was itself SOLELY at fault as a console, rather I was intimating that the Playstation BRAND on the whole was pretty instrumental in transforming the gaming industry as I knew it into a massive bloated cash cow for shady conglomerates to take advantage of

my two cents

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"

Quote from: "tomwaits"To me, the PS1 was the start of 'modern gaming' and dumbed down videogaming to reach mass market appeal. I don't really blame Sony, but they were definitely the lead platform in the transition.

Linear, slow paced, story driven, save point to save point gaming with heavily integrated cinematics. yawn! 6-8 hours of game, then it's over. Games with no scores/high scores = limited replay value. Limited skill required because you can always reload from the last checkpoint until you reach the next one. Endless sequels until the franchise is dead... recycling the same game engine with new levels/cinematics.

Modern gaming is great for business. 'Finish' a game and rush out to buy something else. Sequels appeal to the fanbase. Using the same game engine for 3 or 4 games cuts development time and costs.

There were plenty of exceptions, esp on the PS1, but I definitely point to Sony as the transition platform that brought popular gaming from pick up and play, arcade style, go for a new high score, etc. to playing through the latest ____ game.

Again, very interesting post, but as of yet, no-ones really touched apon what the Playstation did that only it did.

Linear games like Myst, 7th Guest, Burn Cycle, Star Wars:Rebel Assault, Mystery Mansion, Night Trap, Sewer Shark could be found on CD based platforms like CD-i/ MCD/3DO/PC CD, hell 7th Guest been found on SNES CD.Things like Wipeout? well you've got F-Zero on SNES or Gran Chaser on Saturn, High Octane on PC.

For myself, the real Sony dumbing down came with PS2:Eyetoy+Singstar reaching out to non-gamer, no need to worry about controllers, wave your arms or hold this Mic etc, from a buisness point, totally under standable, but look at where it went from there..Kinect, Wii, Move....

Except for the PC version of Myst, I don't think any of those early FMV games were very successful. I also think there was a transition around the start of PS1 from 'FMV gaming' like the titles you listed to 'cinematic gaming'... the FMV now advanced the story but the gameplay stood on its own as well. The PS1 audience really bought into titles like FF7, Resident Evil, and Tomb Raider... partially because of Sony's marketing... and the industry embraced the cinematic franchise model.

Looking at the wiki list of top selling PS1 games:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_be ... ideo_games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PlayStation_video_games))

the list is primarily made up of franchises that started on the PS1. Again, I don't really blame Sony since some are 3rd party, but I'd consider some of those franchises as the start of 'modern gaming'.

And... how often can a sequel really be considered 'creative'? The PS1 had 5 Tomb Raider games, 4 Twisted Metals, 4 Final Fantasy games, 3 each of Resident Evil, Crash Bandicoot, Tony Hawk, Tekken, Spyro, etc. and those games are the majority of the top seller list.

Also... for a direct comparison of what Playstation did that the others didn't, how many franchises received similar milking on the Saturn or N64?

Thing is though, the 1st Final Fantasy game the Playstation got was Number 7.

Metal Gear Solid:Well Hideo had just been waiting for technology to catch up, so he could make the 3D game he wanted, Metal Gear had been a NES/MSX series prior to that.

Wipeout:as i said earlier, jus Sony's version of the future racer, you can trace it back to F-Zero or indeed Powerdrome on ST/Amiga.Sony bought Psygnosis purely because of their experience in 3D games.

Tekken series came from arcades and look at Virtua Fighter it's had what? 5 'proper' games plus likes of VF:Kids, so here NAMCO not really doing anything Sega were'nt.

House Of The Dead had 4 games, lost count of just how many Sonic games there's been on MD, MS, GC, Mobile, handheld etc, so again, are Sega really any more creative than Sony? lot of thier coin-op's been racing games of 1 type or another.Then you've a number of Shinobi games....

For myself, 1st games to use FMV properly in games were: Realms Of The Haunting on PC and Command and Conquer on PC/PS1.

Thing with how many franchises had so many sequels on Saturn/N64:

Resident Evil+Final Fantasy:Had the system used CD rather than cart, i'd say you'd have seen those.

Tomb Raider, as i've quoted from various sources in the Saturn thread, because Saturn required more resources to create games than Playstation, publishers willing to scrap Saturn versions and loose sales, as they knew they'd get far more sales on PS1.

PC had exactly the same number of Tomb Raider games as PS1 did it not? plus how many Wing Commander games? or what's Civ. upto on PC or Xcom? we had Xcom 1-3, Xcom:Interceptor, Enforcer with more spin off's planned.

There are always enduring franchises, but my point was that I think PS1 changed the way they were exploited. And how they were marketed for mainstream success. Every new title was designed as a cash cow... short, linear stories and quick sequels that re-use the same game engine... gameplay dumbed down for a more casual audience so that everyone can reach the ending and buy the next installment. Little replay value. I don't think there's much 'creative' difference between Tomb Raider 1 and Tomb Raider 3... or Uncharted 3.

Long-running franchises on other platforms usually offered a significant improvement over the previous installment. Even Nintendo, who are always blasted for exploiting their franchises, has only ever released one Mario Kart per console generation. Or one F-Zero. The PS1 had three Wipeout games and a 'special edition'. The Nintendo 64 and Gamecube only had one Mario platformer each... seems like every Playstation platformer has two or three installments on each console.

I think PC gaming evolved to 'modern gaming' alongside the PS1, but the PS1 probably led the way... at least as far as sales and households. 

Yeah I totally agree Tom, very well put.

Any many of those games that did debut on PS1 were then flogged to death even more on the PS2.

Quote from: "tomwaits"There are always enduring franchises, but my point was that I think PS1 changed the way they were exploited. And how they were marketed for mainstream success. Every new title was designed as a cash cow... short, linear stories and quick sequels that re-use the same game engine... gameplay dumbed down for a more casual audience so that everyone can reach the ending and buy the next installment. Little replay value. I don't think there's much 'creative' difference between Tomb Raider 1 and Tomb Raider 3... or Uncharted 3.

Long-running franchises on other platforms usually offered a significant improvement over the previous installment. Even Nintendo, who are always blasted for exploiting their franchises, has only ever released one Mario Kart per console generation. Or one F-Zero. The PS1 had three Wipeout games and a 'special edition'. The Nintendo 64 and Gamecube only had one Mario platformer each... seems like every Playstation platformer has two or three installments on each console.

I think PC gaming evolved to 'modern gaming' alongside the PS1, but the PS1 probably led the way... at least as far as sales and households.

Quick post:

Are you familar with the 8-Bit Dizzy series? C64/Speccy/CPC published by Codemasters etc.

Between the ORIGINAL game in 1987 and 5 years later, the series saw:

Dizzy
 Fantasy World Dizzy
Treasure Island Dizzy
Magic Land Dizzy
Spellbound Dizzy
Dizzy Prince Of The Yolkfolk
Fantastic Crystal Kindgdom Dizzy
Go!Dizzy!Go!
Fast Food Dizzy
Kwik Snax
Dizzy Down He Rapids
Dizzy Panic
Bubble Dizzy.

13 games (inc spin-offs) from 1 franchise in 5 years!!!!!!!!!!!


And folks say Sony milk a franchise? :-)

Quote from: "The Laird"Yeah I totally agree Tom, very well put.

Any many of those games that did debut on PS1 were then flogged to death even more on the PS2.

Sega then, STARTING with OUTRUN (and yep, lot of unofficial sequels/spin-offs, but it's a franchise):

Outrun
Outrun 3D (MS)
Turbo Outrun
Outrunners
Outrun 2
Outrun 2 SP
Outrun 2006:Coast To Coast
Outrun Online Arcade
Outrun Europa
Battle Outrun
Outrun 2019.

Quote from: "The Laird"Yeah I totally agree Tom, very well put.

Any many of those games that did debut on PS1 were then flogged to death even more on the PS2.

CAPCOM with it's Megaman (aka Rockman) series, ready for THIS?

MEGAMAN 1-10 (10 games)

Megaman X Series (11 games)

Megaman Zero Series (4 games)

Megaman ZX Series (2 games)

Megaman Legends (3 games)

Megaman Battlenetwork (8 games)

Megaman:Starforce (3 Games)

TOTAL OF:41 games!!!!!!!!!

Quote from: "The Laird"Yeah I totally agree Tom, very well put.

Any many of those games that did debut on PS1 were then flogged to death even more on the PS2.

Back to SEGA, this time, Phantasy Star:

Phantasy star 1-4
Phantasy Star Collection
Phantasy Star Generation 1+2
Phantasy Star Gaiden
Phantasy Star Adventure
Phantasy Star 2 (8 Text adventures)
Phantasy Star Online
Phantasy Star online Eps 1-4
Phantasy Star Universe.

Now do you see why i fail to se why JUST 1 company gets blammed for flogging a franchise?

Also, we don't even need to get into the sheer number of games Sonic's been in, even before the Dreamcast.

I mean...

(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090311015116/sonic/images/4/40/SonicSchoolhouseBox.jpg)

This is a product some suit at Sega looked at, thought for a moment, and said "Yes, this is a product I feel our cherished mascot should be in." This is a real game. I owned it.

Also, I admit there were plenty of sequels on the Playstation, sure. On the other hand, I could think of more than a few good franchises that spawned from it, along with a ton of stand-alone games that ended up really good. There's the early Crash Bandicoot games, and the Spyro series, MedEvil, Tomba...

Yes that is all well and good but what Tom is talking about is the number of sequels on the PS1 itself, or that is how I read it.

I'm sure a list of Mario titles & spin-offs would be longest of all.

BUT, before PS1, I don't think any console was as 'successful' at milking the mass market with back-to-back franchise installments. From the sales numbers on that wiki... 8 million people bought Tomb Raider, then 8 million came right back for Tomb Raider 2, then 6.5 million came right back for Tomb Raider 3. Similar with the Final Fantasy games or Crash Bandicoots or Tony Hawk etc.

Unfortunately, it's great for business, so it led to an industry of endless Call of Dutys and Assassin's Creeds and Resident Evils and Grand Theft Autos and Halos and ...

When the majority of consumer spending is focused on franchise installments there isn't as much spent on quirky originality. There isn't any real incentive for the EAs, Activisions, etc to be original anymore because the mass market has adapted to modern gaming. Seems to me that PS1 was the transition point... it's why I don't consider the PS1 to be 'retro'.

Quote from: "The Laird"Yes that is all well and good but what Tom is talking about is the number of sequels on the PS1 itself, or that is how I read it.

Not done yet Laird, my intrest here is why it's seen as fine for companies other than Sony to continue to pump out sequels and spin off's with out fear of damaging any creative desires.

Did you look at the sheer number of DIZZY games i posted, which came out on the 8 Bits in a mere 5 years?.

Anywho, Temco's turn:

Ninja Gaide:

Ninja Gaiden Arcade
NES Trilogy
N.G:Shadow
Ninja Gaiden MS
Ninja Gaiden GC
 Planned MD Ninja Gaiden
Ninja Gaiden XBOX
N.Gaiden:Black Xbox
N.Gaiden Sigma PS3/Vita (port of Xbox game)
Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword
Ninja Gaiden 2
Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2
Ninja Gaiden 3
Ninja Gaiden 3:Razors Edge.


Back to Sega then, Saturn wise:

Virtua Fighter
VF:Remix
VF:Kids
VF2Lot of talk of VF3 coming via an add-on.


Megadrive, 3 Golden Axe games

3 in Strike Series

3 Road Rash games, plus MCD Road Rash (port from 3DO, in terms of sprite, music and FMV), plus Skitchin used the Road Rash Engine

3 Streets Of Rage games

Sonic The Hedgehog 1-3, Sonic+Knuckles, Sonic Spin Ball, Sonic CD and Sonic 3D

Again, i'm left wondering if it was'nt Sega or E.A or Capcom or.... who set the sequels per format ball rolling here.....

Quote from: "tomwaits"I'm sure a list of Mario titles & spin-offs would be longest of all.

BUT, before PS1, I don't think any console was as 'successful' at milking the mass market with back-to-back franchise installments. From the sales numbers on that wiki... 8 million people bought Tomb Raider, then 8 million came right back for Tomb Raider 2, then 6.5 million came right back for Tomb Raider 3. Similar with the Final Fantasy games or Crash Bandicoots or Tony Hawk etc.

Unfortunately, it's great for business, so it led to an industry of endless Call of Dutys and Assassin's Creeds and Resident Evils and Grand Theft Autos and Halos and ...

When the majority of consumer spending is focused on franchise installments there isn't as much spent on quirky originality. There isn't any real incentive for the EAs, Activisions, etc to be original anymore because the mass market has adapted to modern gaming. Seems to me that PS1 was the transition point... it's why I don't consider the PS1 to be 'retro'.

What's your take on Sonic during the MD days?

So much hype, Sonic Tuesday etc, Sonic games just posted up, in terms of MD/MCD alone, but Sonic merchandise was everywhere, kids clothes, lunch boxes, cuddly toys, cartoons, Comic strips, on F1 racing cars etc

Sega really milked Sonic and speaking personally, whilst the carts got bigger in terms of memory size, never found any Sonic quite as good as the very 1st installment.

Quote from: "Bobinator"Also, we don't even need to get into the sheer number of games Sonic's been in, even before the Dreamcast.

I mean...

(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090311015116/sonic/images/4/40/SonicSchoolhouseBox.jpg)

This is a product some suit at Sega looked at, thought for a moment, and said "Yes, this is a product I feel our cherished mascot should be in." This is a real game. I owned it.

Also, I admit there were plenty of sequels on the Playstation, sure. On the other hand, I could think of more than a few good franchises that spawned from it, along with a ton of stand-alone games that ended up really good. There's the early Crash Bandicoot games, and the Spyro series, MedEvil, Tomba...

Yeah SEGA milked key franchises way before the Playstation era:

Shinobi for example:

Shinobi, Shadow Dancer, Revenge Of Shinobi, The Cyber Shinobi, 2 Game Gear Shinobi's, Shinobi 3:Revenge Of The Master.

Was'nt there also:Alex Kidd In Shinobi World?

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"Sega really milked Sonic and speaking personally, whilst the carts got bigger in terms of memory size, never found any Sonic quite as good as the very 1st installment.

Huh. Sorry to go off topic, but you mind if I ask why? Honestly, I thought the first Sonic was probably the worst of the original trilogy. (And still the worst if we're counting Sonic CD.) It's by no means a BAD game, to be sure, but it just doesn't feel nearly as polished as Sonic 2 or 3. Especially Marble Zone, which is almost so much of a slog to deal with it makes you want to quit playing the game entirely. That, and Sonic 2 and 3, in my opinion, did better at letting you explore, with the bigger levels and all.

Quote from: "The Laird"Yes that is all well and good but what Tom is talking about is the number of sequels on the PS1 itself, or that is how I read it.

What about the 8-Bit micro era then, Laird?

13 Dizzy games was it?

Dandare 1-3

Joe Blade 1-3

Spy Vs Spy 1-3

Boulderdash Series:

Boulderdash 1-3
Boulderdash:Construction Kit
Rockford.

Repton 1-3
Repton Infinity

Eypyx with:

Cal.Games
World Games
Summer Games
Winter Games
Summer Games 2
Winter Events
Summer Events.

I don't think any console or company is to blame as much as I hate Sony now.
It's just come down to cost of making games now, hardly anyone takes that gamble and just play it safe, that's why it's good we have PSn, Xbox live, ios, android because these are the new formats for innovation.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"

Quote from: "The Laird"Yes that is all well and good but what Tom is talking about is the number of sequels on the PS1 itself, or that is how I read it.

What about the 8-Bit micro era then, Laird?

13 Dizzy games was it?
Dandare 1-3
Joe Blade 1-3
Spy Vs Spy 1-3
Boulderdash Series.
Repton 1-3
Repton Infinity

Epyx with:

Cal.Games
World Games
Summer Games
Winter Games
Summer Games 2
Winter Events
Summer Events.

What about it? There were hundreds of original games on the 8-bits. I would bet the percentage of original games in the speccy library is higher than in the PS1's.

And the Epyx games are all different, you cannot call Summer Games a sequel to California Games. Totally different events, just by the same company.

Quote from: "AmigaJay"I don't think any console or company is to blame as much as I hate Sony now.
It's just come down to cost of making games now, hardly anyone takes that gamble and just play it safe, that's why it's good we have PSn, Xbox live, ios, android because these are the new formats for innovation.

I cannot bring myself to 'hate' any company, whilst a lot have really pissed me off (Atari, Sega and Sony) for failure to support hardware or complete arrogance when you phone to report an issue, they are just providing a device.

Sega pissed me off as i bought into hype of MCD, that was £270 wasted-Yet i bought a DC on day 1.

Atari with total lack of support the Lynx deserved and needed, yet i bought a Jaguar on day 1.

Sony:Customer service attitude (man, i wanted to punch whoever i was speaking to!) and failure to handle PSP properly, but IF PS4 offers the games i want, know i'll end up buying 1 at some point.

There is more chance of me doing the voice acting for Zelda in the next re-hash for the Wii U than buying a PS4 

Quote from: "The Laird"

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"

Quote from: "The Laird"Yes that is all well and good but what Tom is talking about is the number of sequels on the PS1 itself, or that is how I read it.

What about the 8-Bit micro era then, Laird?

13 Dizzy games was it?
Dandare 1-3
Joe Blade 1-3
Spy Vs Spy 1-3
Boulderdash Series.
Repton 1-3
Repton Infinity

Epyx with:

Cal.Games
World Games
Summer Games
Winter Games
Summer Games 2
Winter Events
Summer Events.

What about it? There were hundreds of original games on the 8-bits. I would bet the percentage of original games in the speccy library is higher than in the PS1's.

And the Epyx games are all different, you cannot call Summer Games a sequel to California Games. Totally different events, just by the same company.

All Epyx 'games' used same template used same template, so felt very similar.

you honestly don't think Codemasters milked the Dizzy games? of course the Speccy had MORE games than the PS1, those were the days of 1 man coders etc, sure you had teams, but people could knock together a Speccy game in weeks, get someone to publish it.You could buy a Speccy, learn to code, go from there, rather different to PS1/Saturn era.


Point i'm making here is even when gaming was very much a hobbyist era, software houses were very keen to pump out more sequels+spin offs, it was happening long before gaming was dragged into the main stream.

Quote from: "The Laird"There is more chance of me doing the voice acting for Zelda in the next re-hash for the Wii U than buying a PS4 

IF it's a purer gaming machine than next gen Xbox, has proper hard core exclusives like true Demon Soul's 2 (none of this Dark Souls stuff) then i'm there.

If it's another me too device, over-priced with poorest versions of multi-platform games, then cat in hells chance.

I go where the games are, hence over the years buying:Snes, N64, Game Cube, yet in all honesty? i would'nt miss Nintendo if they shut up shop tonight, as it was 3rd paty games on ALL 3 that made me buy the devices.

Quote from: "tomwaits"There are always enduring franchises, but my point was that I think PS1 changed the way they were exploited. And how they were marketed for mainstream success. Every new title was designed as a cash cow... short, linear stories and quick sequels that re-use the same game engine... gameplay dumbed down for a more casual audience so that everyone can reach the ending and buy the next installment. Little replay value. I don't think there's much 'creative' difference between Tomb Raider 1 and Tomb Raider 3... or Uncharted 3.

Long-running franchises on other platforms usually offered a significant improvement over the previous installment. Even Nintendo, who are always blasted for exploiting their franchises, has only ever released one Mario Kart per console generation. Or one F-Zero. The PS1 had three Wipeout games and a 'special edition'. The Nintendo 64 and Gamecube only had one Mario platformer each... seems like every Playstation platformer has two or three installments on each console.

I think PC gaming evolved to 'modern gaming' alongside the PS1, but the PS1 probably led the way... at least as far as sales and households.

The talk of re-using a game engine reminded me of a Mega Drive game that never saw the light of day:

House Of Fun (Gremlin), used the Amiga graphics Engine from Harlequin, it was based on the Madness track, with your character, Mr Smash, based around the bands Trumpet Player.

Bit of triva there for ya.

:-)

Quote from: "Bobinator"

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"Sega really milked Sonic and speaking personally, whilst the carts got bigger in terms of memory size, never found any Sonic quite as good as the very 1st installment.

Huh. Sorry to go off topic, but you mind if I ask why? Honestly, I thought the first Sonic was probably the worst of the original trilogy. (And still the worst if we're counting Sonic CD.) It's by no means a BAD game, to be sure, but it just doesn't feel nearly as polished as Sonic 2 or 3. Especially Marble Zone, which is almost so much of a slog to deal with it makes you want to quit playing the game entirely. That, and Sonic 2 and 3, in my opinion, did better at letting you explore, with the bigger levels and all.

2nd crack at this, 1st post got lost.

Whilst i could'nt fault Sonic 2 or 3, it was much like my feelings with Shinobi 3 and SOR 3:

Whilst Sega were getting more from the MD hardware resulting in better looking games, the 'impact' of Sonic (or SOR 2/Revenge Of Shinobi) just was'nt there.

Think 'we' all have grand ideas from what we expect from a sequel, sometimes they deliver above and beyond (Res.evil 2, Freelancer etc ), sometimes they crash and burn (DMC 2, Halo 2 etc).

Sega seemed very good at putting in new stuff, be it 2P mode, more sections, but a lot o the time once the novelty wore off, i was left wanting a lot more.

The sheer hype for Sonic 2, probably meant it'd NEVER live up to expectations if i'm honest, plus Sonic really did knock my socks off when i 1st played it, guess i wanted later Sonics to do the same.

SOR 3 was a good game, just not a patch on SOR 2.

I think Shinobi 3 is brilliant though - my personal favourite of the series on the MD.

Personally I think the winds of change were coming long before the PS1 came out. EA was already doing it's yearly sports titles, Capcom was already doing Street Fighter update after update, and Sega was putting Sonic in any game they could.  Also doesn't anybody remember how stale the last couple years of the 16 bit gen was? Every other game was a side scrolling platformer that was very similar to the last one. The playstation brought some much needed variety in games. Yes I will agree they changed the industry from a niche hobby to the state it's in now but if they hadn't done it somebody else would have. If the PS1 was never released Panasonic would have released the 3DO successor M2 and had it taken off  today everyone could be claiming they killed the industry. I really believe the end result would have been the same, maybe just would have taken a couple more years is all.

Quote from: "Shadowrunner"Personally I think the winds of change were coming long before the PS1 came out. EA was already doing it's yearly sports titles, Capcom was already doing Street Fighter update after update, and Sega was putting Sonic in any game they could.  Also doesn't anybody remember how stale the last couple years of the 16 bit gen was? Every other game was a side scrolling platformer that was very similar to the last one. The playstation brought some much needed variety in games. Yes I will agree they changed the industry from a niche hobby to the state it's in now but if they hadn't done it somebody else would have. If the PS1 was never released Panasonic would have released the 3DO successor M2 and had it taken off  today everyone could be claiming they killed the industry. I really believe the end result would have been the same, maybe just would have taken a couple more years is all.

Very good post.I can recal E.A doing Fifa and Ice Hockey updates on the MD, 3DO Road Rash was follow on to 3 MD games and they even then got another game from it, on the MCD, porting 3DO main sprite and games music to the MCD game, so they were going to continue this practice on 3DO, Saturn and onwards, Playstation was just another platform.

They were already updating older franchises or at least publishing new instalments of...Road Rash, Fifa, Syndicate Wars, Fade To Black (follow up to Flashback), Starfighter 3000, Return Fire follow upto Amiga Firepower, new Space Hulk.

Looking at the FAKE M2 tech Demos.what did we see? Another Racing game, Another beat-em-up (Chick Vs Dino0 etc.As for games? well Iron+Blood appeared on PS1 but started off on M2, D2 was originally M2, but moved to DC.

To think developers were'nt trying things out on PS1 as it was mass media, really does sound odd when you see things like:

Depth, The Aquanaut's Holiday, Wild, Pure, Simple Life (a caveman sim, in 3D).

As for hating a company?

Should i 'hate' MS for allowing patches to appear on console games? (Far Cry on Xbox) and claiming it'd be a 1-off? (look at it now, day 1 patches the norm) or being the 1st to charge for DLC on console?

Should i hate SEGA, for pushing Virta Fighter to a wider audience with:VF KIDS (Arcade+Saturn), VF2 (MD), or VF Mini on Game Gear?.

Yeah I really tried hating Microsoft at first but in the end the Xbox got games that weren't on the PS2 so I sucked it up and bought one. Like you I go where the games are. Simple as that.

:-)

If it's the amount of sequels that put folk off Sony platforms,  i have to ask:

Just how is The Neo-Geo viewed then?

Samurai Showdown series
King Of The Fighters Series
World Heroes Series
Metal Slug Series
Fatal Fury Series
Art Of Fighting series.

System's origins meant it was never going to see a lot of variety but it's a class system.

Ohh, wait, least i forget, Chiptune already answere this question, ALL it's games were shit.

Quote from: "Shadowrunner"Personally I think the winds of change were coming long before the PS1 came out. EA was already doing it's yearly sports titles, Capcom was already doing Street Fighter update after update, and Sega was putting Sonic in any game they could.  Also doesn't anybody remember how stale the last couple years of the 16 bit gen was? Every other game was a side scrolling platformer that was very similar to the last one. The playstation brought some much needed variety in games. Yes I will agree they changed the industry from a niche hobby to the state it's in now but if they hadn't done it somebody else would have. If the PS1 was never released Panasonic would have released the 3DO successor M2 and had it taken off  today everyone could be claiming they killed the industry. I really believe the end result would have been the same, maybe just would have taken a couple more years is all.

Auctually, thinking on it, the M2 was  things Sony did, with PS2, yet a good while before it.

Hyped up tech.specs:Sony had Emotion Engine, 75 Million Polys per sec.

M2:Claimed it had 10X the power of the N64, alsmost on par with Sega's Model 3 Coin-Op hardware-in reality, Warp etc put it around 2-3X the power of the N64, powerful hardware for the time, yes, but not the uber-powerhouse they claimed.

Faked game footage, yes on BOTH platforms.

Key games little more than sequels? Sonys well known (More:wipeout/Syphon Filter/MGS etc).

Yet of known planned M2 games we see:

Clayfighter 3 (hardly a killer app)

Distruptor:yes, the early PS1 FPS, but souped up-think 10X the polygon count and full 3D characters, but still a PS1 FPS underneath.

So, lets assume PS1 never happened:We'd be in a world where sega's Saturn has fullfilled it's design purpose (i.e it's a 3DO beater), The Jaguar? guessing it'd still be released at same point, with same crippling flaws in it's hardware and tools, CD32, CD-i situation would be the same (would 32X still have been released? i feel answer is YES), so M2 gets released as a Saturn/N64 beater.

Software would initally comprise of what? D2 (sequel to a then Saturn only title), Iron+Blood (M2's VF2?), Clayfighter 3, a nice looking FS by name of Distrupor (but gameplay wise doubt it'd challenge say Perfect Dark or Goldeneye on N64).

Atari would probably have gone on to launch Jaguar MK 2, giving a lot of talk about how only it was the most powerful, true 64 Bit system, but after seeing what became of the Jaguar MK1, no-one took them seriousily anymore.....

Sega responds by saying it's started work on it's Next Gen home console and it'll be based around Model 3 hardware, far more powerful than M2 etc...and cycle continues.

Names change, policies don't.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"Ohh, wait, least i forget, Chiptune already answere this question, ALL it's games were shit.

Not big on fighting games, I take it?

no one is saying that Sony STARTED the whole franchise milking, no one said that AT ALL... what I personally was saying was that the playstation generation, for WHATEVER reason, was the start of a major change in the industry. Whether you attribute that to franchise popularity or marketing is up to you

Yes, if the Saturn had been more popular than the Playstation then it may have been Sega rather than Sony that we now frown upon for the current state of affairs but the plain fact of the matter is that it WASN'T Sega, it was Sony, and as I said in my post, they saw the success of the Playstation 1 and took the idea to the next level with the PS2 to the point where the masses were UTTERLY fooled into buying a shit product that was basically a massive PR phenomenon but had no actual QUALITY. It was PURELY released to milk franchises, Tekken, Gran Turismo, Tomb Raider, etc etc ad infinitum to line their pockets and it worked a treat, thus turning the video game industry model into a financially driven one built around easy repeatable franchise games using the same tech with little or no work involved and maximum profit expected

I also agree with Tom that the original Playstation definitely benefited heavily from the franchises that it popularised, no one is saying those franchises all STARTED there, but the Playstation made them popular and as a result the financial benefit was exponential.

I'm sure had Sega's Saturn won the 32bit battle we wouldn't be in a much better situation, unfortunately no one cares about what might of been in this instance, only what WAS, and what WAS; Sony, with the help of Activision, EA and Ubisoft, turned the video game industry into a bloated festering cash cow built on dumbing down the masses with rehashed, reused game franchises that were tweaked and made using the same engine and mechanics etc resulting in minimal cost but maximum profit

Franchises on the older systems such as Sonic and Megaman had real replayability because they required repetition and SKILL... the modern game simply does not require that when you can simply load from a save point and not get penalised.

The quick save seemed to stem from the PC area and i totally agree, it took away any skill to games playing, in fact i'd go further and say it destroyed a lot of tension in games, you did'nt fear dying as 'thanks' to quick save, you were just a button press away from reappearing where you were say 10 seconds ago.

Dunno IF you read my questions to Rebellion, but i asked what they thought of PC GAME reviewers at the time, slagging Rebellion of for only giving 1 save per game in the original PC AVP.

Reviewers said it made the game far too hard (So Rebellion changed it with AVP:Gold and i think patched the original), which for myself, totally went again'st what Rebellion were clearly setting out to achieve.

By playing as the marine, you really did feel death was just a heart beat away, you approached the game in a far different manner to that of a std FPS as you were taking your life in your hands.

Far more recently on this gen:Bioshock-I'd quite happily die at certain stages of the game, knowing a respawn chamber was less than a min.back and i'd be re-born with full health and powers etc, thus far better set up to take on the hordes ahead.Entire game felt so removed from say System Shock 2 in terms of tension+atmosphere.S.S 2 i regard as an all time classic, Bioshock i don't.

Regarding the industry:By time CD arrived, it seemed the interactive movie was to be 'The Next Big Thing' magazines like ACE etc running cover features on Play The Film, it seemed industry viewed this as the Holy Grail, once that was found to be a dead duck, they went looking for the next way to tap into the mainstream market, guess making it 'cool' was seen as the way forward.

CD/32 Bit Era seemed to be the start of when in-game advertising(static and dynamic in game ads) really kicked off as well (another bane to gaming), i know we'd seen Lucozade, Chuppa Chups, Penguin Biscuits, Chewits etc in 8/16 Bit games before, but with Wipeout, Ghost In The Shell etc there were billboards for Red Bull, videoscreens etc, Return Fire on 3DO had a Do It For real type ad.from the US Army, by the time i picked up Crazy Taxi on DC, the people i picked up wanted to be taken to Pizza Hut, KFC, The Levi Store etc.Might have made the  enviroment feel more real, but for myself, destroyed a lot of the feeling of escapism.

Marketing boys and girls  seeing rich potential to get the message to new auidance, recent Splinter Cell games, ohh my god, Sam needs his brand of breath gum and certain model of Mobile Phone to keep the country safe, Wipeout HD had ads on the loading stage (which Sony had to remove as it pissed us gamers right off) etc.

As soon as game sales started to over take say cinema ticket sales or DVD, music CD sales, marketing jumped right on board and the industry took a whole new direction.

Finally have time to write another post but DCultrapro has already summed up my opinions on PS1 perfectly.

But, also wanted to comment that there were plenty of great, creative, original titles on the PS1. I own about 200 PS1 games and two consoles... wore out the laser in my launch day system. Looking at the bigger picture though, only a few of my favorites are on the top selling games list. The masses accepted the modern gaming model and PS1 just happened to be the leading platform during the transition.

Like AmigaJay mentioned, I think the biggest blessing of the current gen is the variety of games available on PSN, Wiiware, and xbl. Massive audience for small development teams to take chances on new game ideas. Net Yaroze evolved. Creativity returns!

oh yeah definitely, on the PS1 I had some games that I loved to bits:

Armored Core
Evil Zone
Tai Fu
Wild 9
Metal Gear Solid
Ghost In The Shell
WCW Vs The World
Final Fantasy 8

I'll try and think of some others but none spring to mind at the moment.

Quote from: "tomwaits"Finally have time to write another post but DCultrapro has already summed up my opinions on PS1 perfectly.

But, also wanted to comment that there were plenty of great, creative, original titles on the PS1. I own about 200 PS1 games and two consoles... wore out the laser in my launch day system. Looking at the bigger picture though, only a few of my favorites are on the top selling games list. The masses accepted the modern gaming model and PS1 just happened to be the leading platform during the transition.

Like AmigaJay mentioned, I think the biggest blessing of the current gen is the variety of games available on PSN, Wiiware, and xbl. Massive audience for small development teams to take chances on new game ideas. Net Yaroze evolved. Creativity returns!

Yep, tools like MS's XNA helped a lot, believe likes of Fez, the Dishwater games (Vampire Smile+Dead Samurai), Flotilla etc used it

Also believe Ex-Psygnosis (Sony Liverpool) just set up their own small studio, despite being offered positions in far bigger development teams, they've decided to go it alone.

Hope to see the fruits of their labours soon.

Seeing the rise of video games in the 1970's and 1980's leads me to believe the creativity ended when the field narrowed to only three main console makers.

It has been pointed out very well that the Playstation had to compete against the CD-i, 3DO, Genesis, Jaguar, Neo Geo, Super Nintendo and the Sega Saturn. You could also argue for the  GameBoy, GameGear, Lynx and Sega 32X.

They were all fighting for a share of the profits.

Once Sony won it seems the flow of new and exciting games dropped of the cliff.

Maybe OUYA will change that?

I think much caution needs to be exercised when appraising the Net Yaroze in terms of how much credit Sony deserve for it.

Going from memory (w/o checking Wiki!) Sony charged a small fortune for the setup. Hardly the altruistic action of a company willing to genuinely embrace the creativity of the public.

Secondly, Net Yaroze PS games were gimped from the outset by Sony's decision to limit their size to a tiny amount of memory. The upshot being that games could only ever hope to be extemely simplistic realtive to commercial games. Hardly the altruistic action of a company willing to genuinely embrace the creativity of the public.

Thirdly, Sony not long ago wiped all Net Yaroze PS games (that were available for people to access) from their servers. Without any advance warning either, afaik.
Hardly the altruistic action of a company willing to genuinely embrace the creativity of the public.

In summary, Net Yaroze was a quirky piece of expensively priced kit for budding coders to mess about with. Maybe it inspired some to realise a career in the games industry, I don't know. To credit Sony with much more than that though is perhaps a little misguided. As far as I remember it, Sony used Net Yaroze primarily as a marketing tool to help add to the 'cool' image they were so keenly fostering for the PlayStation brand.

Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"I think much caution needs to be exercised when appraising the Net Yaroze in terms of how much credit Sony deserve for it.

Going from memory (w/o checking Wiki!) Sony charged a small fortune for the setup. Hardly the altruistic action of a company willing to genuinely embrace the creativity of the public.

Secondly, Net Yaroze PS games were gimped from the outset by Sony's decision to limit their size to a tiny amount of memory. The upshot being that games could only ever hope to be extemely simplistic realtive to commercial games. Hardly the altruistic action of a company willing to genuinely embrace the creativity of the public.

Thirdly, Sony not long ago wiped all Net Yaroze PS games (that were available for people to access) from their servers. Without any advance warning either, afaik.
Hardly the altruistic action of a company willing to genuinely embrace the creativity of the public.

In summary, Net Yaroze was a quirky piece of expensively priced kit for budding coders to mess about with. Maybe it inspired some to realise a career in the games industry, I don't know. To credit Sony with much more than that though is perhaps a little misguided. As far as I remember it, Sony used Net Yaroze primarily as a marketing tool to help add to the 'cool' image they were so keenly fostering for the PlayStation brand.

Just been reading Edge's feature on Yaroze.

Price was £550 a LOT less than a full PS development kit, see below.

'Gimped' on memory? errr, it's EXACTLY the same as a normal PS1 (2 Mb main Ram, 1 Mb VRAM and 512K Sound Ram).

Namco fitted the entire Ridge Racer Conversion into exactly this 2Mb Main Ram, soundtrack was streamed from CD.

Hobbyist coders not really looking at CGI intro's etc

Yaroze had to be pirate-proof, thus limiting program to the PS1's main Ram, Video Ram and sound Ram.

As for giving them credit:

Dave Perry: 'This is one of the best things that's happened in a very long time'

Eugene Jarvis: 'This is an awesome development'


Jon Ritman:' We do have a problem with artists needing to see the results of their work as quickly as possible and as Cranberry is unwilling to buy them the FULL development kit, with a black playstation coming in at 4% of a FULL development kit, i can see us and other developers finding them very useful.'

Phil Harrison said 'This is NOT a mass Market consumer proposition' so , Sony were'nt marketing it as 'cool'.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"Just been reading Edge's feature on Yaroze.

Price was £550 a LOT less than a full PS development kit, see below.

So it was expensive just like I said it was.

Quote'Gimped' on memory? errr, it's EXACTLY the same as a normal PS1 (2 Mb main Ram, 1 Mb VRAM and 512K Sound Ram).

Namco fitted the entire Ridge Racer Conversion into exactly this 2Mb Main Ram, soundtrack was streamed from CD.

Yes, it was gimped because Net Yaroze games could only be a few MB in size albeit that audio could be streamed from the game disc. Games couldn't be 'unlimited' in size like commercial games could.

Namco worked wonders in fitting the entirity of Ridge Racer (audio excepted) into the PlayStations's RAM but that game was hardly representative of the norm. However, that's missing the point because Namco had access to the (then) full development suite which Net Yaroze didn't have so even with the best will in the world there's no way a game of Ridge Racer's quality could have been made using Net Yaroze.

QuoteHobbyist coders not really looking at CGI intro's etc

Indeed.

QuoteYaroze had to be pirate-proof, thus limiting program to the PS1's main Ram, Video Ram and sound Ram.

That's fair comment when taken in isolation. Sony's Phil Harrison may have said, "This is not a mass market consumer proposition" but Sony were marketing it as 'cool' by releasing PR statements to magazines which blitzed us with it in a way that helped reinforce the 'cool' factor of PlayStation, imho. Harrison also said things such as the goal being to, "go back to the golden age of video game development, which was at home, on your own or with a couple of friends, designing a game yourself."

I'm not trash talking Net Yaroze, as I would have hoped was clear in my initial post on the matter. Net Yaroze games were distributed on Official PlayStation Magazine coverdisks, for instance, which was obviously a great thing. I'm stating that much caution needs to be exercised in appraising it. Heck, it's not as if it it were the first such consumer development kit either because the there was Develo for NEC's PC Engine and the WonderWitch for Bandai's WonderSwan before it.

Sony's record in this regard since the days of PlayStation is rather telling too. There was 'Linux for PlayStation 2' which wasn't really the same thing and PS3 originally had Linux as its 'Other OS' but Sony gimped that too by not permitting it access to the console's RSX graphics chip... before they removed it completely via a firmware update.

Reading Harrison's comments in the Edge article, to me, i'm not getting this Sony=Cool! vibe, more an attempt to get more people into coding.

He talks of how he started in videogames by typing in magazine listings, 'screwing around with them, saying this does'nt work, but what about this?' and he hoped the logical outlet for Yaqroze would be computer graphics and computer science courses at varying educational levels, be it at the masters level or moving down to vocational training and technical colleges.

The 2 Mb Ram was also done to ensure that the Yaroze programe would NOT be competing with the professional dev.kit.

Also, Yaroze user was'nt looking to be producing the next £45 mega-game from his/her bedroom, so they did'nt need the polish to justify a games asking price.
Eugene Jarvis said regarding the Ram issue: ' By limiting it to 2 Mb, the focus needs to be on gameplay, not graphics'

In Japan, Yaroze sold to a large number of artists+designers looking to team up with programmers to create games, so it was a low cost means of opening up a whole new range of possibilites, with the hope that people would code in C, use the PS tools, focus on the game, not the video drivers etc, instead of being bogged down in the things programming for something like say Windows threw up, where you'd need to be able to run printer drivers, screen savers etc.

Plus the coder did'nt have to write the 3D maths routines when working with Yaroze as it's 3D Math's chips took care of that.

Also regarding Sony trying to make gaming cool, whilst they used the music arm of Sony corp etc to great effect, in instances like using the Designer's Republic for artwork on Wipeout series, it must be noted Gremlin Graphics interactive did same thing with Hardwar, also BMG with GTA and then you've E.A and Virgin Interactive who also used Designers Republic.

Few more attempts from others at trying to make THEIR products appear 'Cool' way before sony tried it with Playstation:

Phillips were calling the CD-i the'Phillips Imagination Machine' in it's early, pre-release days (I.e the only limits with it, is your imagination'.

Commodore showed the Amiga 1000 to the world at a special event in New York on July 23 1985, the Amiga was presented by Debbie Harry and Andy warhol, in an attempt to make computing appear 'cool' to the selected jurnolists present.

Least we also forget The Bitmap Bros-Licencesd Music in their games/deal with Music Publisher, Rythm King, so we saw music by Bomb The Bass, Betty boo etc.

They were very vocal at the time how RENEGADE would be all about publishing the work of the indie programmer, yet as Jeff Minter said in an interview, when you approached them, they were really ONLY interested in promoting their OWN titles, hardly setting up a home for creative talent....



Plus they loved to publicise hemselves as 'Rockstars', huge hype at the time about them setting up their Renegade publishing label...

Sega:Well, Moonwalker arcade/MD/MS, the 'Make My Video' series on MCD (INXS, Kriss Kross and Marky Mark) trying to merge lines between gaming and music.

There was an Amiga game who's name escapes me which had Snap music in it etc etc.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"Reading Harrison's comments in the Edge article, to me, i'm not getting this Sony=Cool! vibe, more an attempt to get more people into coding...

The main thrust of my original post, as was stated three times, was that of Sony not having been the altruistic company with Net Yaroze that some people are seemingly so keen to paint them as.

Net Yaroze was a nice piece of kit and it helped provide a limited platform for creativity for those who could afford to lay out £550 (£808 inflation adjusted) two to three years after PlayStation had launched.

As I've also previously intimated, I'd perhaps be more likely to entertain the over the top praise some afford Sony for Net Yaroze if the company had developed the ethos with subsequent generations of PlayStation brand consoles (see previous post re: PS2 & PS3). I could elaborate further but it sometimes feels you're being contrary, i.e. playing devil's advocate, just for the sake of it so now I've made my point I'll be saying no more on the matter.

To state the blindingly obvious, of course other companies before and since have strived to position their products and brands as being 'cool'. I fail to see the point of you having listed those examples because it wasn't as if I or anyone else here was putting forward the arguement that Sony were the first console manufacturer and videogame publisher to try marketing their product and brand as being 'cool'. That would have been just plain silly.

IF you think i set up this thread or indeed ANY other thread i've created on here to, as you put it, play Devils Advocate or just being contrary, then you VERY much mistaken and that's a sterotype in itself, thought you'd be above claims like that.Maybe your confusing me with someone else.........

Entire point of the threads are to encourage debate, take a look at way public and media saw a company, device or/or games and how attitudes changed.NONE of them are PRO-Sony, PRO-Jaguar, Pro-ANYTHING.Not everything has to be this viewed in 1 light

I've had run in's with Sony over hardware defects, don't rate the PS2 as high as i do my Xbox/DC,been very vocal over the piss-poor handling of the Vita etc etc, but i feel nothing for them or any other corp.Hell i'm typing this on a Logitech keyboard, connected to a MS device, which is connected to a Toshiba TV and is sending information via a BT landline.

Connected to same TV is a Sega Dreamcast and MS Xbox mk 1, so i'm far from heaping praise, but then i would'nt want either Sony or MS to bow out in next 5 years either.


I know your views on Sony and on many counts i'm in total argreement with you, as for Yaroze, sure it was flawed, just like anything else that's created, but i'm willing to accept at least it tried to do something.As for the price? that's corporations for you, what was the CDTV RRP? 3DO? CD-i?

The likes of the fact/fiction, did Jaguar games get unfair reviews and indeed this very thread were to get insights from the community on it.

I'm not going to blow my own trumpet here, but by giving quotes from the people who worked on the saturn, i've tried to break down the stigma the machine has at being crap at 3D, with the Jaguar thread, how initally the media loved it, then turned on it soon as Saturn+PS1 arrived.

With the Sony thread here, as i said on the opening post, i've seen the Playstation 'blamed' for the industry shift, ON OTHER FORUMS, when as i've put forward here, you can see the early signs of publishers and corporations trying to get gaming away from geek into cool.Sony had the cash and the music etc arms to really make that happen, but the roots were laid down a long time ago.

You can also lay some of the 'blame' on the publishing models used by the industry-how many MD games were platformers or shoot em up's for example? or the games press, something that's so evident in todays jurnolism, where a review is boiled down to a series of tick boxes-Does it have online MP? +1 if YES.Is it a FPS? If YES, does it play like COD? if NO, -1.

The gaming media has constantly been trying to champion what they class as cool and if things were seen as different, they'd get very little page coverage.

If you felt i was playing devils advocate to such a degree, then why post? why not just ask IF that was my game via a PM, i'd have been more than happy to clear up any missunderstanding

I had hoped perhaps we'd see some comments from people who had (or knew of people who had) used the Yaroze or worked in the industry, as this site has some very rich talent on board and people clearly know far more people within the industry past+present, as the interviews on here are fantastic.

Seems pointless starting threads at times.

I really should'nt be having to justify a post or thread when it's non-offensive and just set up to get some debate going.Really annoyed  me off as i've approached a Sony thread same way i have the Saturn, Jaguar, PC etc.

This is a brilliant debate, i have let it go as most of what has said has been in the right manner so far so lets keep it that way.. Remember opinions are just that, facts are sometimes that formed of opinions..I wont say no more lets just keep that in mind.

Rebooting this thread.Changed title to relect that and with hindsight and common sense, i really SHOULD have started thread out as i intend to now, focus on 1 corporation was bound to go south somewhat, so how about the following to start a new debate:

The gaming industry has ALWAYS been looking to capture fresh, new consumers and as a result, we've seen games+hardware increasingly targeted at fresh markets.

For example the PS1+PS2 were aimed at the 'core' gamer, generally male, 18-35 years old, large disposable income etc and towards the later years of it's life, Sony went after the causal, Non-gamer with things like Eye Toy and Buzz on PS2, PS1 aimed at younger age group etc, yet these consoles saw support far longer than say Xbox, which having done what MS wanted from it, was cut off sharply (and in it's prime i feel).

Nintendo with the Game Cube by comparison seemed more focused on the family side of gaming with the G.C which seemed to suffer for this approach, yet nailed it with it's handhelds, GBA, SP and DS being huge sucsess stories.The DS sucsess in Europe it has been said was due to Nintendo getting female consumers into female gamers.

MS had huge early sales of Kinect, Sony's Move has been a slow and steady sales device, the Wii was massive due to going after the previous non-gamer market etc.

But with resources going on games and devices to attract previous non-gamers, did we, the 'core' gamer loose-out somewhat?.

I ask as this generation alone has seen MS can Freelancer sequel on 360, have RARE stop work on all internal projects to just produce Kinect titles, Sony closing studios left, right and centre, had DLC for Heavy rain canned, instead had studio patch in Move support, Steel Battalion and 'spirtual' new Panzer Dragoon' gone Kinect only etc.

What, if ANY games or experiences has the core gamer lost, as publishers rush to attract the causal market?.

I'll get the ball rolling on the reboot:

Ex-RARE member, Chris Seavor, was interviewed and he talked of the projects RARE were working on and why they got canned:

Perfect Dark:Core, which was to be a lot more open and with freedom, very much a Deus Ex styled Perfect Dark.It was canned as P.D 0 sales fell short and MS said we alreadyhave a FPS franchise (Halo) so we don't need another.

Conker 2, Kameo 2 also in the works and stopped as teams switched to producing Kinect Games, he said Kinect Sports sold 4-5 Million units, so MS wanted more titles like this, then there was Savannah, Ordinary Joe and Urchin-a dark fairytale in mould of Fable, but with things Fable promised (replace the dog with a pig in this case).He talked of how MS just were'nt interested in the creative stuff RARE were doing, only sales units.

Generation before, i'd have loved to have seen how Jeff Minters Unity turned out on Game Cube, seen someone sign him up to convert Tempest 3000 from Nuon to G.C, loved to have seen Capcoms Dead Phoenix.

On Xbox, things like Team SAS or Lionhead's B.C (Caveman sim) looked very promising, as did Falcon:Into The Malestrom (sadly never made it, yet Mace Griffin did), never saw GP4 on Xbox either.

PS2 wise, New Xcom (Dreamland Chronicles:Freedom Ridge, by J.Gollop) sadly died.

Psygnosis were reduced to just producing Wipeout Games, yet Off.PS mag ran a feature on possibility of PS1 franchises like G-Police and Colony wars getting new instalments on PS2, nothing ever amounted to more than talk of doing them.

Guess the market was changing quicker than i wanted to accept and games were being made for a new auidance, those who give me blank stares when i mention Syndicate, Xcom, the Strike Series.Guess only hope for new instalments on these for say PS4/Xbox Next, lies in the digital only route.

Reading an article from May 2006 on Psygnosis:

Ian Hetherington (company founder) would back projects other publishers might not have or at very least, not so early on, as he'd spot talent just by speaking to coders and seeing their very early demos.

Martyn Chudley approached them with a very early demo of The Killing Game show and was lent an ST HDD to speed up development dramatically.

Martin Edmonson approached them with early code for Shadow Of The Beast and Psygnosis backed it as an Amiga 1st game, this at a time when the ST was outselling the Amiga 5-1, any other publisher would have said, yeah but can you do an ST version 1st?.

Jon Burton's Leander was backed on the spot, based on a very earl demo, which just had 1 creature in it, a dragon.

Wipeout designer Nick Burcombe talked of how someone like Ocean would 'recycle codeand change graphics to fit any IP they could get their hands on' in comparison to Psygnosis nuture talent approach.

He describes MS dropping Quantum Red Shift 2 on Xbox as a real eye-opener as up until that point he'd had the romantic idea that Curly Monsters could flourish or at least survive as a small, but cost-effective studio, but where as in the glory days of Psygnosis, a game selling 350,000 copies would be a huge achivement, in 'todays' market, things were very different.

Quantum Redshift just had'nt sold in numbers MS wanted and thus had little-no IP value and thus could'nt warrant a sequel.

On Wipeout, which Psygnosis described as the best thing they'd ever done they said:

'we very consciousily said:How do we take this to the mass market and get cool?', it was the complete product in terms of positioning.

They spoke of a very early desire to capitalise on new, growing markets, beyond the ST+Amiga, the Mega Drive was just the start.Hence tapping into CD Rom development with things like Microcosm.

Curly Monsters, talked of how when you approached MS with ideas for games, they expected you to be a big (60+ people) studio, with big ideas, blue sky and massive budgets.


Regarding Sony+The Playstation:

(Hetherington again)'..When Playstation was 1st conceived, it was'nt going to be released in western world.The amount of memory it had meant it was a load-and-go machine, niether streaming, nor making real use of the CD.If you could have made a 3 megabyte CD, that would have been fine for them in Japan.Thier development systems, EVERYTHING was a mess......IF you'd relied on the Japanese for support as a platformer developer, nothing would have happened.Psygnosis built the development systems for the European market.'

Such a shame that Sony bought out Psygnosis and ruined them

Quote from: "The Laird"Such a shame that Sony bought out Psygnosis and ruined them

That's talked on, how once Sony 'took Office' you saw a gradual decline of the brand image, how it was all standardised jewel cases, need for more identifiable, market-friendly IP.

Complete absorption into Sony's internal studio structure soon followed, with UK operations becoming SCEE Studios:Liverpool, Camden, Stroud+Leeds.

To see them become just a Wipeout production line was tragic.

Disney just CLOSED down Warren Spector's Junction Point studios, after Epic Mickey recived dissapointing reviews and sales.

Review score hovers between 56+64 on Metacritic, depending which platform you look at.

Sales wise, 529,000 copies sold, compared to 1.3 Million of the 1st game.

Man, it seems to me as soon as a studio has 1 or poor selling games, that's it, closed.

Bizzare were hit bad by dissapointing sales of The Club, then Blur, but were very talented.

Very ruthless market out there.

If that is the way of the future, then I do not like the path.

Dang, fail me once and your gone?  Quite the mindset!  Very scary to be a developer with any company that works that way.

E.A putting the Medal Of Honour series out to pasture after 'dissapointing' sales of last one and poor reviews.

Can't really say i'm that saddened-bought a good few of them, but only the 1st game on PS1, PC Allied Assualt and GBA Inf. really stood out.

The MOH games this gen been very dissapointing.

Still, 1 less generic FPS franchise, cannot be bad.

I'm not a fan of FPS games so no hard feelings for me.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"E.A putting the Medal Of Honour series out to pasture after 'dissapointing' sales of last one and poor reviews.

Can't really say i'm that saddened-bought a good few of them, but only the 1st game on PS1, PC Allied Assualt and GBA Inf. really stood out.

The MOH games this gen been very dissapointing.

Still, 1 less generic FPS franchise, cannot be bad.

I have to say that I loved the first MOH on the PS1. We had one in our apartment when I lived in Tenerife and it was one of the few games we actually had, we were too busy going out to play games most of the time. I never got bored of using the sniper rifle to take out Nazis.

I recently got Medal Of Honour Heroes 2 for the Wii and I actually think it's really good! Although it plays more like a light gun game than a FPS.

Browsing though old issues of ARCADE Magazine, found an article called:

'Is deathmatch killing games?'

This was back in Jan'2000 issue, now look at just how crowded the market is in this genre!.

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"Browsing though old issues of ARCADE Magazine, found an article called:

'Is deathmatch killing games?'

This was back in Jan'2000 issue, now look at just how crowded the market is in this genre!.

If only they knew!

Thread bump, but Graftgold Co-Creator, Steve Turner talking about transition to consoles:

'Consoles were very similar to the 16 bits, espically the Amiga as it had lots of hardware to assist you.The SEGA systems used the same assemblers, so we could use a SEGA version of the same development system.Dealing with the console licensor as well as the publisher also took more artistic control away from us.They had their own ideas and made sure you adhered to them even if you had more experience making the correct game decisions'.

On why he felt later titles did'nt sell as well as Uridium and rainbow Islands:

'we still had the magic, but things had moved on.What the commercial industry praised were bigger, more expensive products that did'nt seem to rate the gameplay.Even with the 16-bits the empasis was on better graphics than better gameplay.Movie sequences also stole the limelight'.

Also, whilst under SEGA's 'wing' Graftgold were asked to create a game based on the (German) cartoon, 'The Ottifants', exposure of said cartoon was hoped to reach Simpson-esq levels, but poor performance meant it only showed in a fraction of the places it was planned to be shown, so had less 'pulling power' as a franchise.SEGA only gave Graftgold 3 months to deliver the game and as a result it was far from what the wanted, quality wise.

So pre-Playstation era, we've 'seen' Atari tampering with Jeff Minters 'vision' for Defender 2000 on Jaguar and thus consumer had a lesser game and before that SEGA and it's strict schedules and rules taking away artistic control etc from Graftgold.

Industry was def. moving away from a golden era of gaming many of us once knew it seems, even as early as the MD/SNES era....

While I'd already seen that interview in one of the gamesTM bookazines, reading it has inadvertently made me want to play Uridium+. I've only sen screenshots of that game and it looks damn fine, imho. I say that as a one-time huge fan of the original Uridium, of course.