Retro Video Gamer

When making a new game for an old obsolete system, do you think that it is better to limit a new release to a certain number of copies? Say 150, 200, 300? , or, to keep making them as long as there is demand?

What do you think?

That is a tough question to give a simple answer. I have know idea what it takes to create a game, the expense of the created game or to warehouse the finished games.

So I will respond this way. I'm not a fan of limited runs but I do like on demand games.

For me there are certain times of the year when I buy games and it is usually in the autumn months.

Do you think that people hold off buying when the game isn't limited, and buy quickly when it is?

They probably do hold off when it isn't limited. I'm sure thinking the game will be available when they have the money.

Do pre-orders help or hurt limited runs?

I've seen postings about games that were supposed to be sold out, but are actually in stock because of delays in shipment or the buyer just canceled his order. In those situations I can see some customers who might have bought the cart if it had not been a limited run.

Personally, I don't like limited releases.  It makes getting games harder and sometimes, if you miss the window of opportunity, you miss the game altogether.  Having said that, I realize that for homebrewers there has to be some sort of limit given the logistical challenges of making the carts, etc.  If continuing to make the games is possible, I'd vouch for that. 

Personally, I find that people waiting is the biggest frustration. I put a lot of money up front for the printing...then have people say they are waiting for 'game x' to come out so they can 'save on shipping'....meanwhile, I am trying to get the money for the next release.

I've thought about giving early buyers a significant discount.....50 dollars....but they have to buy 2 copies...then after a month, the single copies go for 75....something like that....

I don't like limited either, but there needs to be some urgency to people buying the games,.....just how does one do that?

Yes I can see the logistics of it being a problem.  Preorders may be something that may help as that will at least give you some of that money that you need.  If you have a game pending release and one available, how about offering a discounted preorder price for the next title if the currently available title is purchased?  Would that help you?

Since I am a real business, I am not allowed to take money unless I have product to ship.

No 'pre-orders' really......except for people saying 'yes, I will buy it'

But considering I have printing of minimum numbers.....the fewer copies, the higher cost of the printing......

Limited might be the way to move games and then be done with it.

Quote from: "Elektronite"Since I am a real business, I am not allowed to take money unless I have product to ship.

No 'pre-orders' really......except for people saying 'yes, I will buy it'

But considering I have printing of minimum numbers.....the fewer copies, the higher cost of the printing......

Limited might be the way to move games and then be done with it.

Sounds like that will be the way to do it then.  What's the most you've sold of any given game? 

Quote from: "TrekMD"Yes I can see the logistics of it being a problem.  Preorders may be something that may help as that will at least give you some of that money that you need.  If you have a game pending release and one available, how about offering a discounted preorder price for the next title if the currently available title is purchased?  Would that help you?

This ^

I have missed out on a number of games I planned to buy over the year because they were limited releases and when they were made available for sale I was skint  >:(

The way Super Fighter Team do it is very good, when they released Zaku for the Lynx they did a run and sold out. Then they checked if there was still demand for the game and did another run a year later.

Yeah I really don't like limited releases either but from a business point of view I can understand it.

Yeah, one can't keep expensive boards in stock, trying to sell a large number just to earn a few bucks. I have had more than one person request that I wholesale them copies of my games for less than my cost....it is too bad that it has to be that way, but it looks like limited is the way it has to be

Limited release because resources are constrained to a home-brew developer, that's understandable and very reasonable.  Limited release for the sake of artificially giving the impression of scarcity in order to urge people to buy faster and make more money, that's unconscionable.

Real businesses build the return on investment into their model.  If the demand cannot be adequately supplied without artificial constraints or questionable tactics, then perhaps this market is just not profitable enough for a real business?

The worse part about that second option is how it affects the player community:  like others have said, people end up missing out altogether on some games, and the re-sale price turns into a gouging-fest by the hoarders, which makes most home-brew games even less approachable.  If the point is to get people to play new games and enrich a platform's catalogue, why even consider that model?  Ultimately, it becomes unsustainable.

Just my thoughts on the matter, not intended as an attack on anybody else's.

    dZ.

I hear you DZ....I agree. I don't think that anyone wants hoarders gouging people because they missed the boat so to speak.

On the other hand, how do you sit there with lots of money tied up in product, and a potential customer asks 'how many did you make?' with the answer being the sole determiner if they buy a copy (or two) based on how much they think they can eBay a game for later?

There has to be a way to encourage people to support the significant investment in materials, (without begging) and without relying on an artificial scarcity. The trick is finding the balance.

Or... Jut consider that it is charity work or a hobby and cannot be sustained in any other way.  It's a fair possibility, which may be unfortunate to some, but perhaps reality.

The truth is that it is a hobbyist and enthusiast market, and the programmers who bother to supply it, arrive at it from the same angle.

Nobody is asking to go back to the state of the industry back in 1983, where game producers were saturating the market with crappy sequels and cheap knock offs.  There aren't enough programmers to supply a constant stream of well designed games in the long run.

I do not mean any disrespect, honestly, but I just don't see how this market can be treated in any other way and expect to succeed.  If the time to market is long, and the investment requires a commitment that you are not willing to invest, then expecting a change of behaviour in such a small niche is disingenuous.

I disagree when you say that there "has to be way to encourage people to support the significant investment."  Most people don't care whether the game comes in a fancy box or in a paper bag.  They just want to play the game.  Your production is of very high quality, but sometimes the quality is not the sole discriminant for someone to make a purchase decision--especially when your customers themselves treat it as a hobby.

    dZ.

EDIT: I had problems posting this entry, and had to edit it numerous times because it kept being submitted half-way.

A great example of what can happen when the supply is limited is Gorf and Battle Sphere Gold for the Atari Jaguar.

Both these games have been known to sell for over $1000 on eBay.

I paid just £25 for Gorf when it came out! 

"I disagree when you say that there "has to be way to encourage people to support the significant investment."  Most people don't care whether the game comes in a fancy box or in a paper bag.  They just want to play the game.  Your production is of very high quality, but sometimes the quality is not the sole discriminant for someone to make a purchase decision--especially when your customers themselves treat it as a hobby."

That is no doubt true for you, but when we started selling D2K in cart only, less than 50 were sold......when the box came out, more than 400 have moved....for many people, presentation is very important. Also, I think that most 'homebrews' have such a short window of availablility, that small numbers have been the reality. They are sold out before anyone but a select few find out about it. I know you doubt that it can be more than anything but a hobby, but I am starting to sell numbers that make manufacturing these viable. However, the next 5 releases which are on the verge of being released will be the acid test to see if I move on to more popular systems and leave the Intellivision to the hobbyists or not.

Quote from: "Elektronite""I disagree when you say that there "has to be way to encourage people to support the significant investment."  Most people don't care whether the game comes in a fancy box or in a paper bag.  They just want to play the game.  Your production is of very high quality, but sometimes the quality is not the sole discriminant for someone to make a purchase decision--especially when your customers themselves treat it as a hobby."

That is no doubt true for you, but when we started selling D2K in cart only, less than 50 were sold......when the box came out, more than 400 have moved....for many people, presentation is very important. Also, I think that most 'homebrews' have such a short window of availablility, that small numbers have been the reality. They are sold out before anyone but a select few find out about it. I know you doubt that it can be more than anything but a hobby, but I am starting to sell numbers that make manufacturing these viable. However, the next 5 releases which are on the verge of being released will be the acid test to see if I move on to more popular systems and leave the Intellivision to the hobbyists or not.

Willy, you seem to have misunderstood my position.  It's not that I "doubt" that it can be more than anything but a hobby.  I'm sure it can be turned into a successful business.  However, like I mentioned on my first response to this thread, there are certain constraints built into this market that affect the time and the capital required to invest.

Your comments suggested that you were not willing to make those commitments and were looking for ways to force a change of behaviour with artificial constraints.  I said that, if that is your goal--to make money quick, or to see a fast return on investment--then perhaps this is not the place for you.

For example, if I all of a sudden learn that there's money to be made in the logging industry and decide to turn my property into a tree farm, it is on me to make sure that I plan my business in a way that is compatible with the way that vocation works.  If it takes 3 to 7 years for the first batch of usable trees to come out, then I must build that into my business plan.  If I didn't, I cannot reasonably expect to then try to sell acorns because I need the money before that.

You would agree that not many people would jump to that business--even if there is a substantial amount of money to be made.  Likewise, others have done the math for our business and made the same choice.  You think it'll be different, I don't.  Good luck.

Anyway, I really didn't intend to turn this thread into an discussion of our personal theories.

If your question that opened the thread was an honest one, then I gave you my honest answer: I believe it is wrong to generate artificial scarcity, or to exploit your customer base in any disingenuous way, for the sake of turning a buck.

If you posed your question fishing for acceptance for something you were already thinking of doing, then I'm sorry I disagreed with you, and let's leave it at that.

       -dZ.

Quote from: "Elektronite"That is no doubt true for you, but when we started selling D2K in cart only, less than 50 were sold......when the box came out, more than 400 have moved....for many people, presentation is very important.

That's D2K.  It has a built-in audience that may even span the Intellivision community.

I have never bought a "loose" cart for anything.  Moreover, my game was intended to have a fancy box from the beginning, even before you had your gate-fold box template made.  Remember, many people were discussing the possibility of making such a box in the thread that sparked that effort, including me.

So no, it is not true for me.  My boxed game was intended to be a collector's item, the game itself was going to be free. That was my goal.

There are two types of customers in this market:  collectors and retro-gamers.  The presentation you have aimed at is expensive and of premium quality.  It is a premium and polished product in every regard, and it is understandable that you want to sell it for a premium price.

However, this puts the product outside the reach of the casual retro-gamer.  Not every game commands the popularity of Donkey Kong, and so not everybody may willing to pay for a premium packaging for every single game.  That was what I meant before.

If you have a constant stream of high quality, original titles that people *must* have, then a boutique games publisher could be a sustainable business.  But what happens when the well dries up or when the next masterpiece takes longer than a few months to complete?

     -dZ. 

"If your question that opened the thread was an honest one, then I gave you my honest answer: I believe it is wrong to generate artificial scarcity, or to exploit your customer base in any disingenuous way, for the sake of turning a buck.

If you posed your question fishing for acceptance for something you were already thinking of doing, then I'm sorry I disagreed with you, and let's leave it at that."

No, not fishing for acceptance of anything....just wanted people's opinions.....(thank you for giving yours) ....and I agree, that artificial scarcity is distasteful....