Retro Video Gamer

Retro Console Gaming => Other Systems => Topic started by: TL on May 22, 2012, 19:20:08 PM

Title: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 22, 2012, 19:20:08 PM
Any self respecting fan of British gaming should know the legend of the Konix Multisystem or Flare 1 as it was also known. It was the bigger brother of course of the Flare 2 that we better know as the Jaguar and was an unbelievably powerful 8-bit console based around a special ASIC chip called the "Slipstream". It's almost unreal that this console was never released, especially if you read the story behind it. From its hydraulic chair to the games by Jeff Minter everything about this machine is facinating.

My interest in it was spiked again recently when I found out that they had finally found a development system and even better some source code to go with it (from different sources too!).

I suggest everyone here goes and reads all about it over at the website.

http://www.konixmultisystem.co.uk/index.php (http://http)

(http://www5.pcmag.com/media/images/258419-konix-multisystem-1989.jpg)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on May 22, 2012, 19:25:16 PM
I've seen that website before and bloody good it is too. The interviews in particular make for a fascinating read. The Jaguar could have been a 128-bit console!!!
Title: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: zapiy on May 25, 2012, 18:04:53 PM
Wow great info. I almost forgot about this system. Something to get my teeth into over the coming weeks. Cheers fella.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 25, 2012, 18:26:00 PM
It's such a great site, you can spend hours reading it.

I am so excited by the news that they are now working on emulator having finally found a development system and some source code!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on June 24, 2012, 16:25:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgkOLfcRWYA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgkOLfcRWYA)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: AmigaJay on June 24, 2012, 18:23:14 PM
Nice site, always interesting to read about the KMS... but i agree with the site owner, of all the titles so far found out about only a couple interest me, the rest looked ports of poor to average 8-16 bit games...Crazy Cars 2! Pah shoot me!
It was a powerful system for the time though, shame we never got a release too see what it really could have done..I most annoying thing about the KMS was that it was SO close to being released, not even the M2 was as close to coming out!
I will forward to news if he gets that pcb populated or they ever get an emulator runnable in the future.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on June 24, 2012, 18:30:32 PM
The games that interest me the most are Jeff Minters and one that looks a great deal like Blue Lightning in that video.

It really is such a damn shame what happened to this machine, if only Flare had chosen to go with a bigger company to produce it rather than a joystick manufacturer. What a waste that the Slipstream chip set ended up in quiz machines. Flare really didn't have much luck with their consoles, such talented hardware designers deserved better.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on June 26, 2012, 14:27:14 PM
Hi Guys,

I saw this forum pop up on my statcounter list and was interested in seeing what was being said.

I created the Slipstream site and I'm glad to see others share my interest. Thanks for the kind comments about the website too.

Believe it or not, I'm still hard at work talking to various people and following leads to try to get every single last piece of information I can about this machine.
I still have one main guy left to talk to: Robert Kent - the main driving force behind Konix and MSU (apparently much more so than Wyn Holloway). I have a couple of people who see him around Milton Keynes occasionally looking out for him for me. That could be the mother load of information...

Of course, I'm still looking to snag interviews all the time, Jeff Minter being the main one, but he is just not forthcoming at all and I feel Iíve exhausted all avenues Ė funny thing is Iíve seen him wandering the streets of Amsterdam once (where I now live) but was a bit starstruck (or on a date or something) to stop him and chat.

Finally, a FYI - I was involved with a independent TV producer who was going to make a show about the Konix Multisystem as part of a 3 part series about potentially great British (specifically welsh I recall) inventions that didn't make it. He pitched it to the BBC and we were hopeful as he'd produced shows like 'Restoration' and had a few contacts in the BBC. Unfortunately they didn't commission it. Of course, we could still make it at anytime, but as Bedrooms to Billions shows, it's damn hard even to get Kickstarter like crowd-sourced investment to back an idea - as good as it may be.
Keep your fingers crossed!

In the meantime, I've got a lot of work ahead of me to get the dev-kit up and running so don't expect anything next week ;) (But do keep coming back to the site for further insights). There's certainly more coming on the power-chair such as photos sketches and recollections from the designer consultancy that made it for Konix.

All the best, Mark.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on June 26, 2012, 14:30:54 PM
Brilliant to have you here Mark, your site is one of the most facinating on the internet  8)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on June 26, 2012, 14:43:42 PM
Nice to be here :)

Just as a matter of interest - how did you like the Power chair videos? It took a LONG time to get those (basically since the start of last year), and it took quite some investigating to track down the company.

Any thoughts on what else you'd like me to look into?
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on June 26, 2012, 14:53:08 PM
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
Nice to be here :)

Just as a matter of interest - how did you like the Power chair videos? It took a LONG time to get those (basically since the start of last year), and it took quite some investigating to track down the company.

Any thoughts on what else you'd like me to look into?

I remember drolling over the Konix in C&VG back in the day. Now being a massive Atari fan the Konix is also interesting to me from that point of view as it was developed by Flare who of course made the Jaguar for Atari.

I would love to know more about the games media, I have read that it was going to use a disk drive but what was the capacity, what type of disks, was there copy protection to stop piracy, was there also a cart slot available or an expansion port for extra RAM or a CD-ROM?
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on June 26, 2012, 15:12:20 PM
Ok, I can probably elaborate on the website a bit more about this.

I have noticed that the specs on Wikipedia are wrong (lol) about the memory of the unit - they say it was 256K, later expanded to 512K. The dev-kit and all the early documents say it was 128K later expanded to 256K (after the programmers got stroppy). There was also to be a 512K expansion cartridge (the unit still had a cart slot at the back even after they decided to go with floppy) - but this probably would have only appeared once the machine was launched. Interestingly the Flare one unit the slipstream was based on was to be 1MB - but it was supposed to be a computer rather than a console.

I'll have to read through notes to say exactly what the specs of the floppy was and the form of copy protection. But that was definitely the way they were aiming to release software and this was purely to keep cost down (both for manufacture and to keep games affordable). I don't think they got quite as far as having disks produced, there may have been a few made for testing, but all the dev-kits used a PC to download the code directly to the dev-kit which ran the games from memory. I have asked the Konix graphic designer and he said there was no artwork produced for games, so no pics of packaging or so.

The 2nd attempt at launching the system - the TXC / Yanion / Newstar systems were definitely CDROM based. Apparently - these WERE produced and you could walk into a Tandy / Radio shack and buy one - but I'm finding it very difficult to track one down.

They were sold as a CD / VCD / Karaoke player with games playing capability.

I've got a lot more to write up about the later version of the Konix, so stay tuned to the website once every month or so (I can't make promises about when I can get around to writing all the stuff down).
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on June 26, 2012, 15:15:53 PM
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
The 2nd attempt at launching the system - the TXC / Yanion / Newstar systems were definitely CDROM based. Apparently - these WERE produced and you could walk into a Tandy / Radio shack and buy one - but I'm finding it very difficult to track one down.

They were sold as a CD / VCD / Karaoke player with games playing capability.

I've got a lot more to write up about the later version of the Konix, so stay tuned to the website once every month or so (I can't make promises about when I can get around to writing all the stuff down).

This is especially interesting because that makes it very like the Nuon, which was also developed by ex-Flare guys and had several sequals to Jaguar games programmed for it.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on October 10, 2012, 19:16:42 PM
Just bumping this topic because there is a fabulous feature on the Konix Multi-System in the new issue of Retro Gamer!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on October 29, 2012, 21:29:19 PM
Was an avid reader of ACE at the time (still have the mags) and the Konix really did look, in concept terms, years ahead of anything else at the time and a real gamers dream.

Wasn't till good few years after i 'encountered' it again, this time in form of video footage on Telegames video (What Videogame console? or something like that) and it had tech demo's of the boat racing game etc.

Was honestly very dissapointed, graphics were fast, but seemed like souped up ST/Amiga games.

Have to say the Slipstream website and feature in RG were just superb-Features like that WHY i subscribe to RG (not for the iOS game reviews!).

Will we ever see anything like it again i wonder? nowadays consoles seem out dated concept, it's all: All-in-1 media devices with anything you offer, so can i..(ie motion control, online gaming).
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on November 09, 2012, 21:04:16 PM
Just recently been reading through some old copies of: The Games Machine (great mag) saw piccy of Wyn Holloway sat on the system in full set up (Chair with TV and Console perched on it), big smile.Photo taken at British International Toy+Hobby Fair at Earls Court.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on November 10, 2012, 22:34:16 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Just recently been reading through some old copies of: The Games Machine (great mag) saw piccy of Wyn Holloway sat on the system in full set up (Chair with TV and Console perched on it), big smile.Photo taken at British International Toy+Hobby Fair at Earls Court.

Did you read the article in last months RG?

Has some amazing pics of the chair including early designs. Definately one the best articles to have been in RG in recent times.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on November 10, 2012, 23:02:12 PM
Yep, it was that very article that kinda got me searching out the old mags that covered the Konix back in the day, the 'warning signs' were there if you looked close enough-talk of developers getting tired of waiting for things to happen, games being shown basically ST/Amiga games in terms of resolution, but say 256 colours and more detail in say tracksides in racing games.

I still feel it's a crying shame nothing came of it-The concept was so ahead of it's time and seemed to be designed with gamers in mind.

The article in RG though was superb, as were the videos on a DVD given away in the early, pre-Darren (P.D.E as i call it) era.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on November 10, 2012, 23:11:59 PM
I never had that DVD as I didn't buy RG back then  :'(

I have watched all the videos on the Konix website though and some of the games look really impressive.

Poor old Flare design didn't have much luck what with this, the Jaguar and the Nuon. Shame as they were clearly great hardware designers.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on November 10, 2012, 23:32:18 PM
Picked up my back issues when i was going through my Ebay phase (lasted until some sorry arsed S.O.A.B ripped me off and closed account on there, Grr!)-paid good few pennies to secure back issues of R.G and Edge (of all things).Luckily enough, mags came with the covermounted DVD's.

The multi-system i feel would have needed lot more than 256 colour versions of Amiga/ST games to really stand a chance, i was avid follower of the hardware at the time, but also an ST owner and so would have needed to see some killer-apps exclusive to Konix.

Something like say Starglider 3 would have gotten a day 1 purchase from myself.

Nuon? yeah great shame as seem to remember key figure from SONY quitting to work with Nuon and media saying Nuon really must be something amazing as this person had been playing key role in PS2 R+D and if Nuon had tempted him away...plus Minter working with them and news of Iron Solider 3...at the time i really wanted it to kick some backside.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on November 14, 2012, 20:50:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tjk9IR5fIA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tjk9IR5fIA)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUy4QMlb790 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUy4QMlb790)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPGtap-nF6U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPGtap-nF6U)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on November 14, 2012, 20:57:17 PM
Just transfered all the RG DVD demo.s of Konix onto my PS3 HDD tonight.The above vids, plus:

Starray, Last Ninja, Sailing, Hammerfist, Bikers, Rotox, art, Cube, Victor, Audio, 3 Modes demo's etc.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on November 15, 2012, 18:43:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYpebHK4cEo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYpebHK4cEo)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on November 28, 2012, 22:57:47 PM
Some amazing new news:

After all these years, and with the kind permission of it's creator, Attack of the Mutant Camels 1989 for the unreleased Konix Multisystem has been found AND emulated.

The Emulator programmer has produced this video of the emulation running on his computer. Shortly, once he is completely happy with the quality of his emulation, he will release the Emulator and along with Jeff's permission we will be able to have a copy of the game and play it ourselves.

This is astounding and is a very significant development. I am, needless to say thrilled!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yN2CrhO ... r_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yN2CrhO93A&feature=player_embedded)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on November 28, 2012, 23:05:20 PM
Bloody hell, this is superb news!  :)

Do we know how/where the game was discovered - did Minter himself locate it?
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Greyfox on November 28, 2012, 23:07:55 PM
Your both welcome lol.. ;)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on November 28, 2012, 23:19:12 PM
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Do we know how/where the game was discovered - did Minter himself locate it?

Apparently not, somebody else found it but Jeff gave his permission for it to be released.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TrekMD on November 29, 2012, 00:01:03 AM
Very nice!  Amazing what still shows up!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on November 29, 2012, 00:05:46 AM
Fantastic news!.

Very keen to hear how game auctually plays though, 1 thing that really did my swede in with Defender 2000 on the Jaguar, was the size of your ship, far, far too large and it's origins seem to stem from the Konix game somewhat.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on November 29, 2012, 17:47:18 PM
Meant to say, The Games Machine reviewed a Konix game (but did make it clear it was on unfinished hardware), game was: Hammerfist, scored 90%, sprites said to be smaller than Amiga version, due to hardware memory issues.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on December 03, 2012, 20:28:01 PM
Hopefully Hammerfist will show up then.

They are trying to get Robocod working on it now.
Title: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: zapiy on December 03, 2012, 21:37:30 PM
So much going on with this, it's amazing stuff.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on December 10, 2012, 16:27:16 PM
[size=180]Konix Multi-system Emulator Released![/size]

(http://www.konixmultisystem.co.uk/images/konixemu.png)

To download the emulator and a ROM file for Jeff Minter's Attack Of The Mutant Camels '89 then head over to the Konix Multi-System website!

http://www.konixmultisystem.co.uk/index.php?id=news (http://www.konixmultisystem.co.uk/index.php?id=news)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on December 10, 2012, 19:16:14 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Hopefully Hammerfist will show up then.

They are trying to get Robocod working on it now.

We dropped Robocod like a hot toddy when we were gifted AMC. Obviously, we were very keen to get that puppie working ASAP!

We will get back to Robocod when SavourySnaX has some more time (he's freakishly busy at work at the moment, so the only developing he's done in the last 2 weeks was this saturday and sunday).
It is another game, and it'll be good to see how later version of the Slipstream system worked - it is however only Robocod and it's a pretty straight port of the Amiga version, so the Slipstream version won't do anything more impressive than the Amiga version. Shame we don't have an exclusive later Slipstream.

We also have some of the earlier Z80 tech demos to emulate. So look out for those.

There were a sh!t load of games in development, you never know what might come out of the woodwork - it's getting a load of publicity now and as it's not going to be too difficult to get anything running then we just need to sit and wait.

Stay tuned to the website, I'll be sure to keep posting updates when there's anything to tell.

Cheers,
Mark.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Greyfox on December 10, 2012, 19:22:08 PM
Thanks Mark for the update... I will be following this closely, like everyone else :), you foresee in the future a possible android port of this wonderful emulator?

Hope all goes well with it..
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on December 10, 2012, 19:26:29 PM
Quote from: "Greyfox"
Thanks Mark for the update... I will be following this closely, like everyone else ;)

Cheers,
Mark.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on December 10, 2012, 19:27:59 PM
Thanks for taking the time to stop by and talk to us Mark!  8)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on December 10, 2012, 19:29:49 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Thanks for taking the time to stop by and talk to us Mark!  8)

No problem - it's the emulator programmer who's busy with his day job - I'm just playing Camels!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: zapiy on December 10, 2012, 19:35:22 PM
Cheers for the info fella..

Will have to arrange that link exchange..
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on April 26, 2013, 20:55:16 PM
Preview of Hammerfist for the Konix Multi-System in C&VG:

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/scan0009_zps423f3745.jpg)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TrekMD on April 27, 2013, 04:15:10 AM
Looks like it was pretty good.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on April 27, 2013, 10:54:28 AM
Big 4-page Konix preview from The Games Machine:

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/tgm1600016_zps00919221.jpg)(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/tgm1600017_zpsb5a91400.jpg)

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/tgm1600018_zps1a8eda96.jpg)(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/tgm1600019_zps7b7865df.jpg)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on April 27, 2013, 11:00:29 AM
Big thanks to RT and yourself for these and the many other recent magazine scans, Laird. :1:
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on April 28, 2013, 19:13:15 PM
More Konix news for you:

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/theone06000018_zpsbd1bf359.jpg)(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/tgm1900007_zpsacfdfe38.jpg)

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/theone13000112_zps20640562.jpg)(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/theone13000113_zpsbd5ce4c1.jpg)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: onthinice on April 28, 2013, 19:20:53 PM
Great scans!  Sad news about the Mega Drive. I did not get my Genesis till late in 1990. So I understand the wait. The games did not wow me at first.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TrekMD on April 28, 2013, 23:26:40 PM
That steering controller looks amazing! 
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 01, 2013, 09:17:44 AM
Don't forget, there are 60 + scans of articles and features in the Press section of the website

http://www.konixmultisystem.com/index.php?id=press (http://http)

Quick update - I've been in touch with someone who claims he has a garage full of the liquidated assets of Konix. He says he has boxes of floppy disks (presumably a backup of all the games developers were working on), a Power chair, several prototypes of the console, devkits documents - basically everything you could ever want. And he reckons itís all in his lock-up.

However... He's being a bit difficult to deal with to the point of me wondering if he actually has anything - there have been no pictures so far to support his claim and everything he's said so far has been vague enough to have a hint of truth, but also so brief that he could have just read my interview in RetroGamer and worked out what I'm looking for.

Time will tell - It's thrillingly exciting if it's true and this stuff is made available - crushingly disappointing if it's some elaborate lie.

Mark.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 01, 2013, 13:48:43 PM
Sounds interesting so keep us updated, I have a few more scans left to post. You probably have them all already but I will get them up anyway.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 01, 2013, 13:50:48 PM
Please do share them!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: zapiy on May 01, 2013, 14:29:35 PM
Brilliant stuff Mark. Sure would be a shame if it does not materialise.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 01, 2013, 14:40:25 PM
Review of Hammerfist from The Games Machine:

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/tgm29000026_zps0e71df7c.jpg)(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/tgm29000027_zpsc7a11bc0.jpg)

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/tgm29000028_zps94e1d9cb.jpg)

This is (as far as I am aware) the only actual review of a Konix Multi-System game to appear in print!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 01, 2013, 15:22:01 PM
Now THAT'S what I'm talking about - excellent stuff.

I can't remember seeing a "review" of a Konix game before, and there are a couple of screenshots I've not seen before.

Cool!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 01, 2013, 15:23:04 PM
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
Now THAT'S what I'm talking about - excellent stuff.

I can't remember seeing a "review" of a Konix game before, and there are a couple of screenshots I've not seen before.

Cool!

Feel free to re-use any of this on your site Mark, just add a nice link back to here somewhere  :16:
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on May 01, 2013, 15:39:15 PM
Fantastic stuff. So apart from the "screens being a bit smaller" the KMS version of the game was seemingly the same as the Amiga version.

I find that quite interesting in that I'd have hoped the KMS would have been in 256 colours. Having a smaller visible play area suggests that,

* the console didn't have the same grunt as Amiga for producing a game of this type, or

* that the developer didn't have the time and/or expertise to adequately exploit the KMS's somewhat complex multi-processor architecture

* the KMS's dev tools were very rudimentary (not unusual)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 01, 2013, 18:08:40 PM
Hammerfist was co-developed on Amiga and Multisystem if my memory serves.Konix version whilst had smaller sprites ran faster, with lot more colours on-screen and things going on, on screen, so guess there was a trade-off.

Know developers views on hardware was mixed, it seemed a flexible system, but concerns voiced over Ram (or lack of..), difficulty of coding to get best results from and having to code to the CPU+Blitter etc.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on May 01, 2013, 18:33:36 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Hammerfist was co-developed on Amiga and Multisystem if my memory serves.Konix version whilst had smaller sprites ran faster, with lot more colours on-screen and things going on, on screen, so guess there was a trade-off.

Cheers for contributing those recollections, RT... and great to see you back posting on the forum.  :1:

It wouldn't be the first time a magazine got something wrong in a game review I suppose! For what would have been only the first generation of KMS games (I'm guessing Hammerfist would have been a launch game) I'd say it sounded like a pretty decent achievement all things considered.

Quote
Know developers views on hardware was mixed, it seemed a flexible system, but concerns voiced over Ram (or lack of..), difficulty of coding to get best results from and having to code to the CPU+Blitter etc.

Yep, a relatively complex system architecture (ŗ la the also unreleased Atari Panther, Atari Jaguar, Sega Saturn and Sony PS3) coupled with early development tools would have likely compounded things early doors. One wonder just what the KMS would have been capable of had it have had the time.

That said, I don't think any manufacturer would have been able to seriously compete with MD and SNES with their respective marketing juggernauts of Sonic and Mario at the time.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 01, 2013, 18:54:41 PM
:-) Cheers DC, my 'return' to posting  a fruit born of many vines.....

Very hard to stay away from intelligent discussion on here by likes of your goodself and others, espically on topics i'm keen on, plus reading some utter cobblers being passed off as 'fact' on RG about the NES, made me think ohh not not this again, i'm 40 this year, i lived through the NES UK years and Nintendo used the 'cool gadget' rather than kids toy marketing angle for the GB, long before Sony used it to market the Playstation, but i digress....


Magazine reviews, very mixed bag over the years, my 'quest' for the facts behind Zzap 64's Operation Thunderbolt C64 review continues, TGM was another Newsfield publication, so not overly surprised reading some of the claims there, then you've C+VG+ 1 DC mag reviewing DC Half Life, EDGE airbrushing up Xbox screens etc etc

The Konix then:Personally feel it would have needed a lot more than just Amiga-esq games in 256 colours to make it stand out, looking at things like Last Ninja 2 on Konix the extra colours used seemed to come at expense in other areas (resolution looked very poor for a 16 Bit game).If marketing were planning on using the chair-add on as the key selling point of the system, rather than the unquie aspect of the 'transforming' control options, then a massive error of judgement there i feel, kids loved things like Transformers, the fact the console was the controller as well and it just looked 'cool' plus offered options 'out of the box' no other platform did, should have been the focus.


Lot of talk was put down about the systems 3D prowers, but since we've yet to see how even things like Starglider 2 would have compared to the ST/Amiga versions, as work abandoned very early on, it's nigh on impossible to judge.

Also, P.R shots of Minter sat in the chair with Light Gun, whilst playing AMC, was very miss-leading, don't think the game would have used either!


You've nailed it on the area of any European console going up again'st the might of Nintendo+SEGA at that time, whilst the Konix would have been ideally suited for many of SEGA's arcade conversions if the chair was used, i'm left wondering just how decent a conversion the hardware would have been able to muster and just how much of an issue the storage medium of disk VS Cart would have been.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 01, 2013, 19:02:48 PM
The price of games would have been a big plus for the Konix what with the games being on disk, but then we have the nasty flipside - PIRACY!

With the disk medium being used no doubt piracy would have been rife and of course there are reliability issues that come with disks too.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 01, 2013, 19:30:31 PM
Reading a few scans from US mag VG+CE, detailing the Konix, Jeff Minter talks of the CPU (quite powerful, plenty of raw power), combined with the Blitter, making for potential of 'fast action' in games, whilst Holoway bigged up the sprite generation of the hardware, claiming it was vast and almost unlimited, 64 on screen at once, game speed would'nt slow as a result etc, but he also claims sprite size would'nt be an issue either, yet as 'we've' mentioned, Hammerfist, which was'nt a port as such, but joint development project, saw smaller sprites than the Amiga version.

R.R.P for games was to be around $14.99 i think, lot of talk of the Konix having proprietary anti-piracy measures built in to combat piracy, but all very vague, plus when i think of measures tried by likes of Ocean etc with say the dongle, it never seemed very effective and we've only too look at how the DS/PSP/Wii/360 and now Wii U have fallen to piracy, so not sure how long the Konix measures would have lasted (if they even existed to start with).
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on May 01, 2013, 19:34:23 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
... The Konix then:Personally feel it would have needed a lot more than just Amiga-esq games in 256 colours to make it stand out, looking at things like Last Ninja 2 on Konix the extra colours used seemed to come at expense in other areas (resolution looked very poor for a 16 Bit game).If marketing were planning on using the chair-add on as the key selling point of the system, rather than the unquie aspect of the 'transforming' control options, then a massive error of judgement there i feel, kids loved things like Transformers, the fact the console was the controller as well and it just looked 'cool' plus offered options 'out of the box' no other platform did, should have been the focus.

Agreed re: what the marketing focus should have been on. It could be said that the Wii 'proved' a system doesn't need to be a technological marvel to succeed when it has a novel controller which manages to capture the public's attention. Those of us old enough to still remember the excitement surrounding the KMS at the time were more than a little buzzed at the prospect of its transformable controller (that, as you say, was also the console itself).

I wonder if Konix ever tried approaching a large electronics company such as Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic, GEC, Philips, etc, to buy out the project once things started looking bleak for them financially speaking. With the financial muscle of such a corporation behind it the KMS could have had a fighting chance against Sega and Nintendo, imho.

Heck, it worked for Hudson Soft in them having approached NEC to help make the PC Engine a commercial reality. I appreciate that's not a like for like example but you take my point I hope.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 01, 2013, 19:51:29 PM
I actually heard a story that Jack Tramiel was VERY interested in Konix and even made an offer to buy the system off them but they turned him down. When everything went sour and they ran out of money they went back to him and Jack, being the stubborn bastard that he was, basically said no way because you turned me down once before. But he was so impressed with Flare that he then hired Richard Miller from Flare to be the Vice President Of Research & Development at Atari and later hired Flare themselves to develop the Jaguar.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 01, 2013, 20:05:48 PM
As a avid magazine reader back then, i honestly did'nt give too much thought to what the actual games looked like, the 'draw' of the Konix was the shher scope of the idea that not only was the console the controller, but you could mould it to suit the game you were playing!.I'd never seen such a groundbreaking concept being put forward-at that time i'd been used to consoles like the 2600 etc just being simple enough boxes you plugged into TV, plugged a joypad/stick in and off you went, graphics+sound improved with each new generation, but core concept remained set in stone.


Plus, this was a British concept and not something just drip feeding in from the USA or Japan, it honestly felt like we were at the dawn of something bloody amazing just itching to happen, a real arcade experience at home, no comprimises on controls.


I'd have thought the concept at least of some big US or Japanese company buying the Konix system and then putting it's custom electronics inside would have been far too good to turn down, hell a MD  chipset inside a Konix case just amazing potential for SEGA to deliver conversions of things like Space Harrier, Afterburner, Outrun etc, we could have seen the best of both worlds-British innovation with Japanese and US software support.

Maybe corporate pride played it's hand somewhere along the line, i don't know, but Konix always struck me as a real If Only....device.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 02, 2013, 17:09:23 PM
Here is a 2-page feature on the Konix from Zero magazine:

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/zero006_zps38905657.jpg)(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/zero007_zpse1ceae07.jpg)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 02, 2013, 22:22:23 PM
TGM ran a news article, 'Was we Konned' reporting on the money issues effecting Konix and game development having hit point where everything had stalled until hardware was updated, but it claimed Konix was approached by likes of Ocean and George Lucas, looking to buy the console itself.Konix refused to confirm these rumours.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 02, 2013, 22:40:38 PM
Zero was reporting that the Konix hardware was to under-go a redesign as the (then) present design had a flaw in the console control pillar-it just was'nt robust enough to take a serious hammering from real gamers :-), plus the chair was having issues getting approved as when the pitch had it moving close to the ground, it'd squash a family cat if it was unlucky enough to be sleeping there at the time.


Nintendo Ate My Hamster? NO! Konix Killed My Cat!

Also, ACE hints at Konix version of Last Ninja 2 having Konix only features, said the flickering, colour graduated energy bars on the bottom left of screen (status panel) could'nt be done on any other machine-Nice graphical effect i'm sure, but really enough to make Konix version stand out from other 16 Bit versions? i fear not....
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 03, 2013, 10:57:52 AM
Quote from: "The Laird"
I actually heard a story that Jack Tramiel was VERY interested in Konix and even made an offer to buy the system off them but they turned him down. When everything went sour and they ran out of money they went back to him and Jack, being the stubborn bastard that he was, basically said no way because you turned me down once before. But he was so impressed with Flare that he then hired Richard Miller from Flare to be the Vice President Of Research & Development at Atari and later hired Flare themselves to develop the Jaguar.

I'd not heard this, but it isn't surprising - Wyn wanted ALL the profit to himself (assuming the machine ever launched and started making money).
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 03, 2013, 12:00:06 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
TGM ran a news article, 'Was we Konned' reporting on the money issues effecting Konix and game development having hit point where everything had stalled until hardware was updated, but it claimed Konix was approached by likes of Ocean and George Lucas, looking to buy the console itself.Konix refused to confirm these rumours.

From what I've heard (talking to people some 20 years after the event) Ocean weren't that enthused by the machine, so it's unlikely they were going to take a punt.  Lucas was true however and reported by a number of Konix employees and the press.


Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Zero was reporting that the Konix hardware was to under-go a redesign as the (then) present design had a flaw in the console control pillar-it just was'nt robust enough to take a serious hammering from real gamers :-), plus the chair was having issues getting approved as when the pitch had it moving close to the ground, it'd squash a family cat if it was unlucky enough to be sleeping there at the time.


Nintendo Ate My Hamster? NO! Konix Killed My Cat!

Also, ACE hints at Konix version of Last Ninja 2 having Konix only features, said the flickering, colour graduated energy bars on the bottom left of screen (status panel) could'nt be done on any other machine-Nice graphical effect i'm sure, but really enough to make Konix version stand out from other 16 Bit versions? i fear not....

I really don't see what was so special about that effect, but until we see a video of it running or find the software and emulate it, then we won't get a feel for how unique it was - I'm guessing it wasn't that special.

LOL (@cat attack!) - I guess there would have been CE regulations for safety that they would have had to have met. The biggest deal was getting a motor with enough tourqe to rock the chair without burning out, apparently this was on the way from China, but never got a chance to be used. It was still highly unrealistic that the chair would have been capable of being manufactured for the cost they claimed they were aiming to sell it for.

In terms of graphical performance, the Multisystem didn't as far as I understand have hardware sprites of any fixed size, so if you wanted to you could probably have had a sprite as big as the whole screen. The problem was memory (or lack of it).

You can see on the website that the AMC'89 game had larger sprites than the Amiga's Revenge of the Mutant camels so it was capable.
It's difficult and probably unfair to really compare the Konix against anything as it had such a small amount of games to compare against other machines. Programmers didn't get a chance to get their teeth into the machine to see what it could do.

Also, don't forget that this was designed to take on an unexpanded Amiga 500 - not a 1200.

Hopefully Lee can get back into emulator programming in a short while, there are more demos and a couple more "games" for him to finish. Once he has a more complete representation of the hardware capabilities then he can start writing some test programs to see how well it could really perform.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 03, 2013, 13:32:49 PM
Excellent reply there, i'll take a look at the points:

1)Ocean-Yeah heard of mixed feelings of the hardware from OCEAN coders who worked on it, general feeling seems to be it was flexible enough, once you got your head around coding for it, but over-all, nothing really that special, kinda like an advanced A500.

2)Konix turning down Lucas-wonder if in hindsight they regret that? Know you've mentioned the money issue (Wyn wanting all the profit), but was there a question of pride? (UK based machine and all that) and do 'we' know what plans Lucas had for it?.

3)The Last Ninja 2 energy bar konix Only effects-Yeah, my personal thoughts are it amounted to little more than cosmetic 'window dressing' and to be blunt, it needed more Konix only effects in the game engine per say, rather than cosmetics on a status panel.From what i've seen, resolution looked worryingly low for a 16 Bit game.

4)The chair for that propsed price-could never see that happening unless they took a massive hit on each unit sold and in effect that'd surely meant putting price of games up beyond the £14.99 tag and then you'd loose a key point of the system.

5)Minter-Whilst i'd loved to have seen what he could squueze out of the Konix, espically given his coding approach (programming Jaguar chips backwards), i was sorely dissapointed by Defender 2000 on Jaguar, main sprite was too large, too powerful when powered up, game just felt unplayable as a result.

We really needed to see some original, 'generation 2' games from Konix to see just how it fared next to the A500 alone.The 256 colour Amiga ports just were'nt going to cut it, i feel in order to make it really stand out, gimmicks or not.It needed triple-A exclusives, but seems publisher approach was wait and see how it sells before fully committing, but if it did'nt have the games it really needed to sell units.....chicken/egg situation.

I'd be very interested to hear just how powerful it was in terms of 3D performance as we've been discussing on here, coders (via some very clever coding) coaxed some small wonders out of the MD, so wonder what Konix could of been capable of?.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 03, 2013, 13:52:44 PM
Agree with all of the above. I think Wyn was insanely patriotic, so it really would have been about pride as well as cash but mostly it was an exercise to enlarge his ego and bank account.

In terms of the Konix and it's performance, it would be great to see if a good programmer who isn't trying to show off but who is working within the limits of the hardware could write a program for the konix which puts it through it's paces - E.G., how many sprites on screen at once, how large are they. Can they be mixed over 3D etc. Can it play 20+ channels of audio and do something game like at the same time.
The beauty of emulation is that you can throw more memory at that test too to see how it would look if it really had more memory (as an intellectual experiment of course).

The PCEngine did pretty well when it was given the extra memory of the Arcade Card.

The problem is, once you let a really clever programmer loose on hardware they do crazy things like the demo coders do getting a c64 to display nice 3D and all sorts of seemingly impossible tricks.

After time programmers learnt how to use advanced tricks like undocumented opcodes and such to squeeze what became standard extra performance from the 8bits like the c64 and speccy. Look at mayhem in Monster land VERY late in the C64's life once all the tricks had been learnt to squeeze additional performance.
2nd Gen games would probably have comfortably shown the performance capability of the Konix without trick, but with the benefit of lessons learnt and familiarity with the system.

Most of the konix games and demos WERE really dissapointing but basically because they were rushed out before a trade show and had Programmers doing the sound and graphics. Only when real development teams got their teeth into it would we have seen the true capability of the machine, and I think we would have seen the real character of it too. I think the Konix games would have looked and felt different to the other machines in it's own unique way and not just Amiga ports.

I will keep working tirelesly to find Konix software in ex-programmers collections that we can emulate and share. Don't worry, I've got several leads at the moment, and I never give up hope of something coming up.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 03, 2013, 16:58:36 PM
Part of me still thinks it would have been bloody fantastic IF Konix had 'shook up ' the industry, fantastic as MD/SNES/PC Eng were, they were just more of the same-a slab, you plugged carts into, connected to TV with a variation of control pads attached to.

The concept of atransforming controller and console all in 1 was the kind of out-the-box thinking i long to see in todays hardware, yet we get..'revisions' of i-Devices and smart phones, PC in a box consoles, Company A copies Company B...whilst Compancy C say's we have something similar coming.It's all gotten so stagnant.

Konix felt like a tidal wave building up and the fact that this was a UK device? Even bloody better, so part of me can side with Wyn's pride whilst another part might be thinking 'greedy bast*rd' but unless we ever know what the Lucas deal consisted of, it's all speculation.

I'd love to see an honest to god, built for Konix from ground up game, no tech demo's or rolling demo's, but the real Mcoy-Just to see what the system was capable of and what comprimises had to be made.Looking at something like the Playstation 2 for a moment:On paper, it dwarfed competition like the Dreamcast and magazines talked about 75 Million Polys per second, Dolby 5.1 Sound etc etc, but like Konix, as soon as coders got development kits, moans started about how hard it was to code for and those claims? well Doly 5.1 could only play in cutscenes and your looking at 20 Million Polys a sec max at very best time you put in lighting effects, game logic etc etc and coders say the system was held back by limited Ram, but you look at a 1st gen PS2 game, say Timesplitters and then a end of cycle PS2 game, say God Of War II-worlds apart, i suspect Konix games would have been similar.

Actual game performance rather different to on paper claims, but noticable jump in performance as the best coders worked out how to squeeze every last trick out of it.

Brilliant work on your part so far my friend, very much appreciated.Do you have any idea what TGM meant when it talked of all Konix development having stalled until hardware was upgraded? are we talking more memory needed? better tools? more upto date dev.kits? or what?.

Also, given press habit of reviewing unfinished games, did TGM review a final copy version of Hammer Fist do you think? or was there some dodgy buisness here with TGM looking for that 'Exclusive!!!!' review?.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 03, 2013, 21:51:15 PM
I was just watching this Konix Multi-System promo video on You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgkOLfcRWYA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgkOLfcRWYA)

And I was reminded of just how much that flying game looks like Blue Lightning on the Lynx:

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/KonixFly_zps0be3c555.jpg)†  (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gygU5Bwjk74/TcLJUTPlozI/AAAAAAAAD84/xHyyFbbVJfU/s1600/BlueLightningLynx07.png)

The spinning cube is also very similar to the one found on the Jaguar:

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/KonixCube_zps314bad13.jpg)†  (http://www.old-computers.com/museum/software/Jag_BIOS.PNG)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on May 04, 2013, 01:52:42 AM
Very well observed, Laird.  8)

The After Burner clone doesn't just bear a passing resemblence to Blue Lighning - it practically looks the same game (graphics fiidelity excepted).

Coincidence? Blue Lightning on Atari Lynx was an Epyx game but I wonder if any of the same personnel worked on both games... or indeed the subsequent Atari Jaguar CD version.

A similarity that I noted was the optional numeric keypad accessory which the subsequently released Atari Jaguar of course had built-in to the controller.

On another note, from that video no matter how many times I've seen it and despite the hyperbole of the narrator I can't help but think how rubbish the racing game looks. All the talk of 16-bit this, 32-bit that and 'CD quality sound' but the games looks and sounds freakin' terrible other than having what appears to be a decent frame rate perhaps. Hardly the greatest work of advertising even by the standards of the time, imho.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 04, 2013, 08:01:48 AM
The afterburner stage of the 3 modes demo was supposed to show that the machine could do an afterburner clone easily.

It's one of the very first demos done and it was written by Attention to Detail (almost completly by fred gill ( who also wrote cybermorph for the panther then the jaguar).

It was written for the z80 version of the system, so it's basically a Flare one demo.

The reason it looked so lame is that it was programmers doing the graphics and not graphic artists. However the afterburner mode does shift the graphics really quickly, so it gives a bit of glimpse into what was to come.

We have that demo code and Lee was working on it before he took a break because of work and life. hopefully he'll get a chance to get back on it and you can all see it emulated.

I have no doubt the konix could have done something like powerdrift effortlessly throwing lots of big sprites around very quickly. but we'll have to wait till the emulator is more advanced and people start getting tempted to write some homebrew for it...
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 04, 2013, 10:55:25 AM
Here is their wiki:

Attention To DetailFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Attention To Detail (short: ATD; official: Attention To Detail Ltd) was a Warwickshire-based British software house that endured nearly 15 years, from its foundation by five University of Birmingham graduates in September 1988 to their liquidation in mid-2003. It was best-known for creating games.

Unlike other companies established at around the same time, ATD was unusually quiet during the 16-bit boom, only releasing Cybermorph (1993) and the sequel Battlemorph (1995) for the ill-fated Atari Jaguar. Their breakthrough came with the 1999 PlayStation hit Rollcage, a futuristic racer that achieved both critical and commercial success.[citation needed] They also made a game called Firebugs.

Having joined the GBH group in 1997, they were given the development of the official video games of the Sydney 2000 and Salt Lake City 2002 Olympic Games. They also developed the Lego games, Lego Racers 2, and Drome Racers.

Although more known for their gaming division, they developed Windows utility Triever, the Q-Motion video compression technology and a graphic unit for arcade machines called RasterSpeed
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 04, 2013, 10:58:44 AM
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
The After Burner clone doesn't just bear a passing resemblence to Blue Lighning - it practically looks the same game (graphics fidelity excepted).

Coincidence? Blue Lightning on Atari Lynx was an Epyx game but I wonder if any of the same personnel worked on both games... or indeed the subsequent Atari Jaguar CD version.

There is an interesting connection between Epyx and Konix actually, they actually had a strong partnership for a long time and shared products:

(http://segaretro.org/images/9/9a/Speedking_Box_Front.jpg)

(http://segaretro.org/images/b/ba/500XJ_Box_Front.jpg)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 04, 2013, 11:16:20 AM
I sent Laird a photo copy of the interview with ATD in early issue of Edge, but looking at it it states:

ATD started creating games....just after it's 4 founders, Martin Green, Chris Gibbs, Fred Gill and Jim Torgussen graduated from Birmingham university.In their final year the quartet did the superlative Atari ST version of the Super Sprint Arcade machine for Electric Dreams.With a little help from contacts they made during that time, they set up ATD. 'Attention To Detail' was more than just a name, it was a statement of intent.

Opening question in interview:

Edge:How on Earth did you bounce back from the Konix debacle?

Chris Gibbs:That was actually a really good time for us.We were new to the industry, but because we got involved writing the system tools, the 1st game for it and some software tools, we met a lot of developers and made a great number of contacts in a short time.

Martin Green:In particular we met the people at Flare, and they involved us in a lot of things that they were doing.They introduced us to Bell Fruit, for example.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 04, 2013, 11:21:09 AM
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
The afterburner stage of the 3 modes demo was supposed to show that the machine could do an afterburner clone easily.

It's one of the very first demos done and it was written by Attention to Detail (almost completly by fred gill ( who also wrote cybermorph for the panther then the jaguar).

It was written for the z80 version of the system, so it's basically a Flare one demo.

The reason it looked so lame is that it was programmers doing the graphics and not graphic artists. However the afterburner mode does shift the graphics really quickly, so it gives a bit of glimpse into what was to come.

We have that demo code and Lee was working on it before he took a break because of work and life. hopefully he'll get a chance to get back on it and you can all see it emulated.

I have no doubt the konix could have done something like powerdrift effortlessly throwing lots of big sprites around very quickly. but we'll have to wait till the emulator is more advanced and people start getting tempted to write some homebrew for it...

!st time i saw Konix promo.demo was the video footage Telegames had on thier 'What Videogames System?' VHS tape and i was shocked by how poor the demo looked, after all the hype of ST/Amiga beater, stunning specs etc, what i saw was fast yes, but looked primitive and sound, whilst better than the ST chip, was nothing special.It honestly did the system no favours at all.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 04, 2013, 11:26:55 AM
Back to ATD:

Edge asked how Cybermorph came about, Fred replied that Flare rang them up saying they'd developed this new chip and needed someone to test it, they'd 'done the silicon'  and now they needed someone to test the functionality-Then it became apparent it was the Atari Jaguar.

Chris said at that stage, no-one knew of the Jaguar, it was'nt even a rumour.

Fred:So we gave them some help, debugging the chipset and some suggestions for instructions that could go into it.Then since we had the experience, it seemed silly not to be doing a product.



So, as i understand it, reason Jaguar struggled so much was due to crippling chipset bugs, if these had been resolved system been a lot better off, so did ATD not find said bugs? or were the findings ignored?.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 04, 2013, 12:20:40 PM
I'm doing an interview with Chris soon, he's already warned me that it will be light on exact details and dates etc. due to how long ago it all was, however he promises some nice anecdotes.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 04, 2013, 12:23:21 PM
Sweet! Looking forward to that.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on May 04, 2013, 13:54:55 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Back to ATD:

Edge asked how Cybermorph came about, Fred replied that Flare rang them up saying they'd developed this new chip and needed someone to test it, they'd 'done the silicon'  and now they needed someone to test the functionality-Then it became apparent it was the Atari Jaguar.

Chris said at that stage, no-one knew of the Jaguar, it was'nt even a rumour.

Fred:So we gave them some help, debugging the chipset and some suggestions for instructions that could go into it.Then since we had the experience, it seemed silly not to be doing a product.



So, as i understand it, reason Jaguar struggled so much was due to crippling chipset bugs, if these had been resolved system been a lot better off, so did ATD not find said bugs? or were the findings ignored?.

My guess would be that Leonard Tramiel ignored their suggestions.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 04, 2013, 14:28:12 PM
i'd love to hear from ATD in their own words just what happened to the debugging of Jaguar chipset and how it reached the market in state it did.Reading magazine interviews are ok, but i'll always recal D.I.D writing to ACE after an interview with them was published and what D.I.D had said as a joke, in response to interviewers question:who has the best 3D routines? they gave a light hearted reply that only way to tell was lock all the 3D coders from the time in a small, dark room, each putting down a large sum of money and getting them to code-winner takes all etc type reply, but it was printed as them saying IF anyone can beat our 3D routines we'll come up with prize money of.....


D.I.D wrote  in saying the piece had protrayed them as arrogant and pretentious developers, so i often wonder whats done on 'cutting room floor' at times, least of all selective answers interviewed coders give when looking back at stuff (ATD later went on to slag Jaguar chipset off as bug ridden in a later Edge interview, which to me was a mockery, as they did the de-bugging, so i've a feeling there's a lot more to the tale as it were).
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on May 04, 2013, 14:40:03 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
!st time i saw Konix promo.demo was the video footage Telegames had on thier 'What Videogames System?' VHS tape and i was shocked by how poor the demo looked, after all the hype of ST/Amiga beater, stunning specs etc, what i saw was fast yes, but looked primitive and sound, whilst better than the ST chip, was nothing special.It honestly did the system no favours at all.

It's an interesting one to ponder, imho.

I remember seeing all the great photos of the console and its chair in the magazines at the time and, as a young boy in his mid-teens, having a sense of wonderment in imagining just how amazing the games could be. The console/controller together with the chair conjured up, what were in hindsight, such impossibly high expectations of the console's games in my mind. I was most likely imagining being able to play games of arcade coin-op standard in the home, e.g games just like OutRun and After Burner.

Naive, yes, but the sky seemed the limit back then in the mind of a young lad who'd seen games go from Space Invaders to Dragon's Lair to OutRun to STUN Runner. Nothing seemed impossible. Amusing now to look back but there it is.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 04, 2013, 16:11:54 PM
I was going to say, i'd loved to have seen how something like Stun Runner fared on the Konix, could have been chance to show just what platform was capable of, but yep, looking at what we did see in relation to what we expected to see from it, it does now amuse.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on May 04, 2013, 16:52:34 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
... yep, looking at what we did see in relation to what we expected to see from it, it does now amuse.

I'm now remembering those Virtual Reality pods with the VR headset plus hand controller. Placing the headset on that first time expecting to enter a new dimension like in the movie The Lawnmower Man... but then having one's senses assaulted by what looked like LegoLand in flat shaded polygon 'glory' lol!

Oh how our imaginations hoped for far more than was feasibly possible!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 04, 2013, 17:58:05 PM
You say that, but how do you think i felt, getting a day 1 PS2 after ALL the hype of how it utterly destroyed the Dreamcast (which i still owned and loved) in terms of Polygons per second etc, only to find what could best be described as PS 1.5 games, much as i enjoyed Extermination, etc the jaggies alone took me by surprise, let alone the limited textures.These were not the Toy story quality visuals i'd been promised.Sure the system improved in time, but a yawning chasm between promised visuals and those actually delivered.

:-)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on May 04, 2013, 19:15:15 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
You say that, but how do you think i felt, getting a day 1 PS2 after ALL the hype of how it utterly destroyed the Dreamcast (which i still owned and loved) in terms of Polygons per second etc, only to find what could best be described as PS 1.5 games, much as i enjoyed Extermination, etc the jaggies alone took me by surprise, let alone the limited textures.These were not the Toy story quality visuals i'd been promised.Sure the system improved in time, but a yawning chasm between promised visuals and those actually delivered.

:-)

Oh how I LOL'd at Sony and their PS2 when it launched here. I never bought in to Sony's pre-launch hype as I strongly suspected it to have been a load of BS even then so it came as a cause of great amusement to witness and read of just how diabolically awful its lauch lineup was. The only plus points being that bizzaro fireworks simulator and that it played DVD movies albeit not very well.

Quite why I subsequently bought a PS3 on launch day several years later I've never quite figured out, lol.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 04, 2013, 19:26:36 PM
:-) gonna have to 'correct' you there slightly DC..it played DVD's reasonably well only IF.....

The DVD drive motor did'nt burn out the moment you opened tray to put a DVD in (cue ANGRY mum on BBC's Watchdog consumer show) and you were'nt trying to play that minor hit...Toy Story in it.......other than that? yeah it was great, ohh and careful trying to view the film that was being used as a showcase for DVD by the studios at that time, minor little flick, perhaps you've heard of it...'The Matrix'? poor old PS2 playback did'nt like all that dark setting, dark clothing etc had more 'ghosting' than entire series of Most Haunted.


Dunno why i'm taking the p*ss, i'm on my 2nd PS2..ohh yes i do..personal exp.with the damn things.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: zapiy on May 05, 2013, 17:31:48 PM
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
I'm doing an interview with Chris soon, he's already warned me that it will be light on exact details and dates etc. due to how long ago it all was, however he promises some nice anecdotes.

Looking forward to reading that fella..
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 05, 2013, 18:01:51 PM
I'm hoping he's got some good stories. But for a couple of people, Chris like everyone else has been nothing but nice and willing to give me their time.

Fingers crossed  :67:

I'm currently trying different sources for information and going after possible sources of Konix software. It appears that there are always some people who have just what you want, you just have to find them or find a way of letting them know what they have is of interest.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: zapiy on May 05, 2013, 18:47:33 PM
Not to sure if we can help but i think we can always ask the questions during our interviews.. Anyone that has something to say about the Konix we will pass thier details to you.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 05, 2013, 19:54:35 PM
Every little bit helps!

Thanks,
Mark.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 08, 2013, 10:35:47 AM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Here is a 2-page feature on the Konix from Zero magazine:

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/zero006_zps38905657.jpg)(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/zero007_zpse1ceae07.jpg)

Which issue of the magazine is this from?
Cheers, Mark.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 08, 2013, 11:39:19 AM
Think the above is from Issue 0-a special, 1 off Preview edition of the magazine if my memory serves.I have said issue, plus it as a magazine scan, but both been put away for now.

Talking of magazines previewing the Konix, in Zzap 64's 'Are You Console Ker-Razy:Look Into My Crystal Ball, Eric section, Konix previewed, the claim companies such as Thalamus, US Gold, Mirrosoft, Palace+Logotron were busy getting games ready for the launch.

Never heard of Thalamus or Palace working on any Konix stuff (well, nothing's springing to mind).
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 08, 2013, 12:15:39 PM
If you could dig that out - that would be cool. I think it might be the one with a blue background and the Joker from Batman on it?

Thalamus may have been the likely candidates to release the "Prize winning shoot em up" (Delta, Sanxion, Armalyte, Hawkeye?) that Jon dean talks about, but nothing was ever confirmed past those vague details.

Palace was being mentioned to bring Barbarian to the Konix - but I think with most developers at the time they were being approached by Jon Dean and were all mostly interested in developing for the machine, but ONLY once it launched and became a viable prospect.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 08, 2013, 12:43:28 PM
Ummm, i ahem, DID email you a few months back offering you the various scans and loan of original magazine pieces for use on your website, but i never got a reply.

They are still there if you want a loan chap, just PM me on here, ta.

Few more 'snippets from magazines:

ACE in a look back at 1989, claimed Amstrad offered Konix millions for the Konix chair, Konix turned them down....reported that media was unwilling to broadcast the open secret that Konix had run out of money bringing machine to production, in case adverse publicty brought the whole 'house of cards' down.

Then you've CU Amiga's Techno Tragedies-KMS piece which said developers were unhappy with amount of RAM onboard the Konix as it meant animation+other effects were difficult, the floppy disk just could'nt provide the data needed to make animation efects work, so only solution was to increase the RAM, but this at a time RAM prices were high, so increased costs had to be met from the profit margin.....delays in producing the Konix system, combined with lack of any finished games from 3rd party software houses finally did it in for the Konix
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 08, 2013, 13:03:37 PM
PM sent - apologies for missing your e-mail  :-[

Wyn should have sold - that's one of the great mysteries of the time, but talking to many of the people involved, it seems his attitude and arrogance was a dual edged sword. You had to have the balls and charisma he had to open doors, get people buying into the concept and getting together a team of people to get it made. And it was so very close to being made...

But.... He could have sold it at the last minute and pulled out in a Star Wars trench run style, with all the pride and glory of the cat that got the cream.
But even by the time Konix was going belly up, the system was starting to get a bit too crusty, I'm not sure what manufacturers would have done with a Super Spectrum when they were close to the Playstation / Jag / N64 Era.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 08, 2013, 13:10:58 PM
:-) that's ok mate, you joined here and we're in contact, so all worked out for the best.

I've been discussing with likes of DCRIP on here just how the Panther would have fared again'st the MD+SNES, as claims of it's power seem a little optimistic these days, plus it'd never have gotten the Jap.support the MD+SNES had, so my personal 'fear' is, had it been launched it'd had shovelware from ST/Amiga and not enough killer software to call it's own, think Konix would have suffered similarly.

Also looking at enhanced 8 Bit Micro tech like the GX4000 and Sam Coupe, you can see how whilst some developers started to use the hardware, a lot just content to port titles straight across, things like Fire And forget on the GX4000 really should have turned out a lot better.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 08, 2013, 13:25:06 PM
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
If you could dig that out - that would be cool. I think it might be the one with a blue background and the Joker from Batman on it?

Yes it is from that one - issue 0
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 08, 2013, 13:31:48 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
If you could dig that out - that would be cool. I think it might be the one with a blue background and the Joker from Batman on it?

Yes it is from that one - issue 0

Yep the 'Pilot' issue as they call it.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 08, 2013, 14:09:33 PM
Interestingly this scan from the One didn't mention the Konix version of Hammerfist at all... Weird! I guess they didn't want to speculate on a machine that wasn't released?

http://amr.abime.net/issue_303 (http://amr.abime.net/issue_303)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 08, 2013, 14:42:32 PM
Don't think ACE's review does either.

Ohh and just braved English weather and posted off 4X DVD's to you on loan.Mag scans of Zero, The Games Machine, ACE and C.U Amiga.Happy wading through those for Konix/Flare related goodies.

:-)


If anything on them can add to your site? job's a good 'un.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 08, 2013, 14:46:43 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Don't think ACE's review does either.

Ohh and just braved English weather and posted off 4X DVD's to you on loan.Mag scans of Zero, The Games Machine, ACE and C.U Amiga.Happy wading through those for Konix/Flare related goodies.

:-)


If anything on them can add to your site? job's a good 'un.

You havn't leant the TGM and Zero DVD's to me yet ;)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 08, 2013, 16:30:48 PM
:-)

True, but then someone said don't send too much at once as they were in danger of being snowed under as it was (think so far your currently sitting on a stack of my magazine pages, 2 memory cards and possibly 2 mag scan DVD's?) plus, you have'nt seen what's in the next wave of paper stuff i'm sending you, lol.

Also, was under impression you had all TGM scan's already? or had i left the lid off the CIF bottle too long, lemon freshness got my head muddled.


Plus making me feel guilty now, lol, whilst i have some of the stuff i promised AmigaJay, still got the others to be done, lol.



looking at The Press section other than filling in some gaps in TGM/ACE area's, see site has the Amiga mag piece i was on about, so that leaves just the Zzap 64 article, lol.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 08, 2013, 17:31:13 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Don't think ACE's review does either.

Ohh and just braved English weather and posted off 4X DVD's to you on loan.Mag scans of Zero, The Games Machine, ACE and C.U Amiga.Happy wading through those for Konix/Flare related goodies.

:-)


If anything on them can add to your site? job's a good 'un.

You havn't leant the TGM and Zero DVD's to me yet :21:¬†  And...i've yet to loan anyone the latest, not seen on either site, 2-pager' magazine piece on the Konix, as only just found it this afternoon.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 09, 2013, 22:33:12 PM
ahhh just found the other interview ATD did with EDGE and Konix mentioned again:

Fred Gill said :'We did a flying carpet demo on the Konix 1 in just 11 days from having it from scratch.it's just a bit Zarch-like in the way the carpet rolls and they liked that'


He then goes onto say they were hired to find ALL the bugs in the Jaguar chipset and they had 12 weeks to test and debug and they made suggestions based on what they had found, (a couple of bits here and there in the Blitter) and they asked if a mode could be included where, when you were texture-mapping, you could add a constant value to the pixels, so it does depth-shading (a feature they say AVP used to good effect), they also say they thought of a couple of instructions to be added to the processors.....

also:Jaguar was originally intended to be a 40 MHz machine, but manufacturing 40 MHz chips turned out to be a nightmare for the Silicon manufactuers at that time and they would'nt guarantee them at 40 Mhz...
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 09, 2013, 23:06:56 PM
That'll be this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 7A1CFhvJNA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=i7A1CFhvJNA)


What issue of Edge was the ATD interview with the Jag bug hunt in?
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 09, 2013, 23:32:41 PM
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
That'll be this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 7A1CFhvJNA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=i7A1CFhvJNA)


What issue of Edge was the ATD interview with the Jag bug hunt in?

ATD interviewed in 2 issues of EDGE (off top of my head)

Feb 1995 (An audience with.......ATD) talked about debugging chipset, but not in much detail


And earlier in Feb'1994 issue (Issue 5), where it's part of the feature on the Jaguar console itself, Developing with Attention To Detail.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 10, 2013, 08:53:14 AM
Also, EDGE Issue 7:April '94:

TXE Multi System Joins The Fray, 2-Page feature/Slipstream ASIC/Wyn Holloway.

Talks of the TXE being  a 32 Bit games machine with CD+G, proprietary FMV, Karaoke, 2 Mics etc.

Games wise 8 titles, just 'enhanced' versions of existing games:Likes of Team Suzuki, F16 Combat Pillot, Lotus Turbo and Robocod.Plus you had enhanced version of PC Moonstone and there was development of a game called DTOX, which was a shooter with rendered graphics.


Tech wise:

386 CPU running at 25 Mhz and Slipstream 32 Bit custom RISC.32 Bit graphics processor, resolution 256X200, best quality FMV in 192X128 window, no hardware sprites, Gouraud shading, texture mapping, can bit in front and behind each of 4 hardware planes, capable of drawing 96 Million pixels per sec.

Release was planned Autumn'94 Japan+Europe, price £399.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 11, 2013, 16:43:25 PM
@Mqarkcambie:Mev Dinc was interviewed in The One ST and mentions the Konix and Hammerfist (as well as being given opportunity to develop for Atari's Panther, but declined as Atari did'nt have a great track record with consoles).

I've also found  the Konix itself in Issue 6, could'nt see said page on your site, happy to loan out the DVD with mag scans on.

Also, slight tangent, but looked at how System 3 used extra power of a micro on Last Ninja 3.ST version ran in 16 colours, Amiga version 32, but the extra colours just used for extra shading, so wonder just how much of Konix would have been used on Last Ninja II status panel gubbins aside....
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 11, 2013, 17:08:31 PM
Here you go:

(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z280/mrkizza/theone06000018_zpsd9722696.jpg)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 11, 2013, 17:27:11 PM
That's the bunny.

Interesting to note the doubts raised already over hardware's claims:

'...but the game demo's running were, to be blunt unremarkable......Programmers don't yet seem to have got to grip with existing 16-Bit technology, so what hope of packing as much as possible into 880K?'


Compressed graphics data of Rainbow Islands conversion to ST+Amiga mentioned, question asked if Amiga/St games used up this much space already, would there be much room left on Konix games for actual gameplay? or would games come on multiple disks?.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on May 15, 2013, 20:07:00 PM
Ok, guy on ebay now saying that he's talking to companies in the US AND the UK and the price of his stuff is now 28 thousand ( funny, keeps going up all the time... ::) ).
Now there's no mention at all of the supposed Japanese deal.

I am fully aware that this guy could be reading this, but I don't care, it is just bullshit. There is STILL no proof, I have no idea how all these people are supposed to be knocking at his door, and he should know that I will never make an offer for something I've not even seen a picture of...

Such a crying shame that this is going down the way it is. I still struggle to understand why it should be this difficult if this guy does have anything, and then - if he doesn't, why he keeps this going for so long!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on May 24, 2013, 21:01:38 PM
Scans from ACE magazine:

(http://i.imgur.com/rrLDOv7.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/B5MRnEa.jpg?1)

(http://i.imgur.com/mSWUzoo.jpg?1)(http://i.imgur.com/MzUr2yd.jpg?1)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on May 24, 2013, 22:02:24 PM
A console of the KMS's nature and they were planning a chess game for it? The mind boggles!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 24, 2013, 22:06:25 PM
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
A console of the KMS's nature and they were planning a chess game for it? The mind boggles!

Think it was just another box to be ticked.Maybe they did'nt want the system to take some flak by offering just action /arcade type games and prove there was no reason why it should'nt see something with a bit more depth to it, try and encourage developers to open up to all manner of genres on the system?.

Just a guess, but knowing what press etc were like at the time back then, danger might of been the Konix seen as offering somewhat shallower games, so not for everyone.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on May 25, 2013, 00:30:41 AM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
A console of the KMS's nature and they were planning a chess game for it? The mind boggles!

Think it was just another box to be ticked.Maybe they did'nt want the system to take some flak by offering just action /arcade type games and prove there was no reason why it should'nt see something with a bit more depth to it, try and encourage developers to open up to all manner of genres on the system?.

Just a guess, but knowing what press etc were like at the time back then, danger might of been the Konix seen as offering somewhat shallower games, so not for everyone.

I 'get' that but a chess game?! Maybe an RTS game of some sort and I'd understand it but not a chess game!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 25, 2013, 01:23:50 AM
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
A console of the KMS's nature and they were planning a chess game for it? The mind boggles!

Think it was just another box to be ticked.Maybe they did'nt want the system to take some flak by offering just action /arcade type games and prove there was no reason why it should'nt see something with a bit more depth to it, try and encourage developers to open up to all manner of genres on the system?.

Just a guess, but knowing what press etc were like at the time back then, danger might of been the Konix seen as offering somewhat shallower games, so not for everyone.

I 'get' that but a chess game?! Maybe an RTS game of some sort and I'd understand it but not a chess game!

True, but looking at the line up of games, where as things like run The Gauntlet would (we hope) have made fantastic use of the transforming control scheme, just what was say Robocod other than the cutesy console style platformer-another box ticked.

Guess at the time with developer support being so patchy, something was better than nothing, plus likes of Battlechess etc big on Amiga, MCD had Star Wars Chess, so chess cropped up on formats i'd not think of being the 1st place to find a Chess game.

Did RTS games ever make it 'big' until Dune II on MD (which was an Amiga port was it not?).
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on June 05, 2013, 23:34:54 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
True, but looking at the line up of games, where as things like run The Gauntlet would (we hope) have made fantastic use of the transforming control scheme, just what was say Robocod other than the cutesy console style platformer-another box ticked.

Guess at the time with developer support being so patchy, something was better than nothing, plus likes of Battlechess etc big on Amiga, MCD had Star Wars Chess, so chess cropped up on formats i'd not think of being the 1st place to find a Chess game.

Did RTS games ever make it 'big' until Dune II on MD (which was an Amiga port was it not?).

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that if they were trying to promote a 'console for all genres, not just arcade-style action games' image for the KMS then it was fine having a chess game but that something a little more snazzy as well as or instead of may have been the ideal choice, imho.

I certainly do recall the popularity of Battle Chess, now you mention it, as I bought that game for my ST at the time. Chess isn't my thing but I do recall enjoying playing that game.  :1:

Maybe the example of an RTS game that I suggested wasn't perfect - I was just trying to put forward an example of a non-arcade-style genre that could perhaps have served the KMS's image better (were it to have been released) than a chess game, that's all. I'm not anti-chess, for the record, lol!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on August 09, 2013, 14:07:49 PM
Chess... I've no real problem with that - I wouldn't have bought it - but it was something different I guess.

But Konix claiming that it supported the Power Chair - What the Hell? That's just bat shit crazy and really smacks of someone at the top passing down an edict that every game must support the Power Chair so that they can ensure it's not just a buy it once never use it again peripheral.

Also, talk of BattleChess sounds cool - however from the only screen shot know to exist of Konix Chess, it had terribly simplistic graphics that wouldn't have encouraged anyone to play it for anything other than the love of Chess.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Gorf on August 10, 2013, 01:28:14 AM
From what I've seen, I do not think this machine would have done very well at all. To try to compete with tech already available power wise was a losing proposition. The Jaguar though completely a blown opportunity had
the right idea and a horribly rushed execution. Had Atari made sure the bugs were fixed, allowed the machine
to run at its originally intended 40 MHZ and used an 68020 as originally planned, it would have scared even
Sony with all it's money into considering entering the vg market. But like most things Atari did, it instead of
being yet another masterful hardware achievement was a desperate rush to judgment...Atari's very own demise.

The Konix just was , with all its neat ideas, too little too late. The Jaguar's failures, were more of the same just
much better thinking in the drawing room than the cost cutting stupidity of the bean counters at Atari. I feel the
KMS would have suffered the same fate once ready for release.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 10, 2013, 02:01:37 AM
IF the KMS had launched here in the UK in 1988 when, afaik, it first started appearing in gaming magazines then it may have stood a chance, imho.

1988 was around the time here that the 8-bit micros (Spectrum, C64, Amstrad CPC) were starting to look long in the tooth and a good number of people were upgrading to an ST, Amiga or Sega Master System. From what I've read concerning the proposed specs of the KMS it seems the console would have more than matched any of those systems.

Remember, the Sega Mega Drive didn't arrive here until 1990, the Nintendo SNES didn't arrive until mid-1992 and the NEC Turbo-Grafx never received a full-scale UK/European launch at all. So the KMS, if launched in 1988/'89, would have had a decent headstart. Lots of ifs and buts there, I know!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Gorf on August 10, 2013, 17:22:33 PM
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
IF the KMS had launched here in the UK in 1988 when, afaik, it first started appearing in gaming magazines then it may have stood a chance, imho.

1988 was around the time here that the 8-bit micros (Spectrum, C64, Amstrad CPC) were starting to look long in the tooth and a good number of people were upgrading to an ST, Amiga or Sega Master System. From what I've read concerning the proposed specs of the KMS it seems the console would have more than matched any of those systems.

Remember, the Sega Mega Drive didn't arrive here until 1990, the Nintendo SNES didn't arrive until mid-1992 and the NEC Turbo-Grafx never received a full-scale UK/European launch at all. So the KMS, if launched in 1988/'89, would have had a decent headstart. Lots of ifs and buts there, I know!

Can't really speak for the UK market....however....

That's my point the TG-16 was here in the US around that time and it's graphics were certainly nothing to sneeze
at, and nothing I've seen for the KMS looked any better or even up to par to be quite honest.

I just do not see a console using a bottlenecked 8086 being worth shit. The ST and Amiga's were by far superior
with their 68k's. That same 8086 was used in the original IBM PC's and they totally sucked compared to an ST or
an Amiga at the time. The only thing going for those piles of shit were the fact that they bore the IBM brand name.

Yeah...the best in mainframes....but dog shit in the home computer market. Yes they are the predominant
machines of today but they've come a long way and had one thing none of the competitors with superior
products had, the name recognition of IBM and that was why. Are you really going to tell me that Bill Gates
would have been worth shit without that? I think not.

He stepped in it and he knows it. Without the IBM name, the PC and DOS(never mind any of the windows)
would have ever made it past the planning stage. The fucking 8086 was based off a motor control chip for
crying out loud. It was never designed to do the business or home PC stuff. They had to add a friggin math
co just to get it to be worth anything back in the day.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 10, 2013, 20:46:17 PM
While I won't be disputing any of that it does seem from some of the KMS unreleased game screenshots posted in this thread that the system was at least capable of producing Amiga game conversions with many more on-screen colours... albeit that, iirc, the playfield wasn't always as large. I can only presume the latter was due to said limitations of the CPU. I see a coder from Binary Designs stated "...The screen handling [also] isn't as fast as we anticipated it to be" which would also seem to chime with what what you're saying.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on August 10, 2013, 20:48:20 PM
Good points Gorf but you have to remember that Flare designed this machine and the CPU was there as just a controller with the custom chips doing all the work, much like its baby brother the Jaguar.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Gorf on August 11, 2013, 21:33:39 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Good points Gorf but you have to remember that Flare designed this machine and the CPU was there as just a controller with the custom chips doing all the work, much like its baby brother the Jaguar.

All I am saying is what I saw of the graphics were nothing that the Genny, SNES or TG-16 could not do.
Unlike the Jaguar, it did not have two other CPU's and using the 8086 would have been an unavoidable
bottleneck....a really, really bad one. The Genny, ST, Amiga all use a 68000 which is by far a much more
efficient CPU than an 8086 even at half the clock rate.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on August 12, 2013, 09:42:10 AM
Flare had considered a 68000 CPU and had worked out the technicalities of using their AVP chip (what Flare internally called the Slipstream chipset when they were marketing it to people other than Konix).
I'm sure if they had interest from a manufacturer they could have gone ahead with that implementation quite painlessly.

Without a large collection of games to compare, I think it's difficult to really judge just how good or bad the KMS was in comparison to it's competitors.
Once the emulator get more developed, I guess if we're lucky, Lee the programmer might knock together some demos that try to push it to see what kind of performance it could really manage but he's a very busy chap...
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Gorf on August 12, 2013, 20:48:48 PM
My point is that even with a better CPU, there is no parallel processing going on. Compare with the Jaguar:

It had 3 CPU's all the color modes one could want and plenty of ballsy hardware but unless you had the tools
to really use it, it would not do very well due to bus contentions. However, even with the unified bus, it did
have three separate memory spaces( the main ram, the DSP local and the GPU local) and with proper coding
would have competed with the PS1. It did not due to a lack of foresight on Atari's part, cost cutting and rushing
the machine out the door before it's time.

Seeing that the KMS had only one CPU, only 4096 colors, I don't see it really going anywhere. KMS also had
a unified bus if I read right and that right there was enough to cause plenty of coding headaches due to bus
contention between the CPU and the GFX and SFX hardware. KMS would have needed a CPU with a private
local RAM.

Jaguar had two extra CPU's with local ram and it did not help much. That is as much the hardware's fault as
it is the toolsets fault.

So I don't see how the KMS would have been much at overcoming this. We had more than enough people
shitting on the superior Jaguar for not being superior enough, when clearly it was, but that's fanboyism for you.

The KMS would have not stood a rats ass chance in hell of convincing other system loyalists to come on over.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 12, 2013, 21:44:04 PM
Quote from: "Gorf"
The KMS would have not stood a rats ass chance in hell of convincing other system loyalists to come on over.

Which gaming systems are you referring to there?
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on August 12, 2013, 21:45:26 PM
I'm not going to leap to the Konix Multisystem's defence because although I'm fascinated by the whole back story, it never came out so it's like comparing Unicorns to Horses.

I appreciate the points you're making, it was universally accepted that the 8086 was an oddball choice basically governed by trying to sell a system that could be called "16bit" for as little as possible (it started with an 8bit Z80). This feature creep carried on to the point of getting up to the 32bit 386 in the Multisystem's final recognisable version - 486 was talked about too...

It's a purely academic exercise to speculate how well the machine would have done if it had been released, because during it's lifespan in development hell, it went through many changes and got surpassed by several different "competitors" machines until it got to a point (MSU SS4 in the TXE Multisystem) where it effectively did become available for purchase but in such an outdated and horribly watered down and buggy form that it would have been competing against it's spiritual successor (the Jaguar). By this time it wasn't even really being itched as a game machine but as a *cough* multi-media player *cough*.
In a market place that didn't need a machine that could barely do what was needed, you could go and buy the PS1 or Saturn which were more laudable choices.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 12, 2013, 21:50:32 PM
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
...In a market place that didn't need a machine that could barely do what was needed, you could go and buy the PS1 or Saturn which were more laudable choices.

So there was still talk of the KMS being released in some form as late as the mid-'90s?  :o
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on August 12, 2013, 22:03:05 PM
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
...In a market place that didn't need a machine that could barely do what was needed, you could go and buy the PS1 or Saturn which were more laudable choices.

So there was still talk of the KMS being released in some form as late as the mid-'90s?  :o

Not just talk - keep your eyes open around the car boot sales, they (MSU which is what Konix became) made the TXE Multisystem which was apparently available in Tandy. I've not seen one yet - but one of the programmers remembers seeing one in Tandy. It was a terrible CDTV like home entertainment box which could play CDROMs and "games". Very sad...
It didn't have the controller or the add-ons and seemed to be aiming for the edutainment market.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 12, 2013, 22:07:08 PM
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Quote from: "mqarkcambie"
...In a market place that didn't need a machine that could barely do what was needed, you could go and buy the PS1 or Saturn which were more laudable choices.

So there was still talk of the KMS being released in some form as late as the mid-'90s?  :1:
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: onthinice on August 17, 2013, 17:52:48 PM
EGM look at the Konix.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 17, 2013, 18:06:47 PM
Talking of the Konix, well the hydraulic chair.....

CES '91 had 2 companies showcasing  similar chairs, but unlike the Konix one, both had a joystick built into the chair, with firebuttons, on the arm rest, but directional control of chair was in the base of the chair, so if you wanted to move left, you leaned to the left

We saw the  ' Simulator II Action Chair' by Simulator Technology Inc which worked with:Afterburner, Top Gun, Rad Racer, Road Blasters and Tetris!! on the Nes, Super Thunder Blade, Super Monaco GP, Super Hang On, Afterburner II and Space Harrier on MD.

Plans to make it work with Amiga, PC+PC Eng.were also mentioned.

Plus Power 10's 'Hot seat' .


Virgin were meant to be looking at marketing the action chair here in UK.


Link to Action Chair details here:

www.gamesniped.com/2010/05/27/sega-action-chair/ (http://http)

Not stictly Konix related, but thought best place for it.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: onthinice on August 17, 2013, 18:14:13 PM
Thanks for sharing RT!  :21:
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 17, 2013, 18:17:50 PM
Quote from: "onthinice"
Thanks for sharing RT!  :21:

Glad you liked it.

Information best shared i always think...
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 17, 2013, 20:00:07 PM
Mag scans are out on loan at mo.so might well end up loaning Laird the mag itself, but..

Zero Issue 2/Dec'89 had wealth of titbits on the Konix.

Konix Kliffhanger (way it's spelt) talked of how Konix had over streched itself, cash wise, with the Multi-System project and were left 'reeling' after Epyx, who owed them a stack of cash for all the Speedking Joysticks they'd been disributing, went bust, plus constant re-designs to the Multi-System were costing a fortune, so they'd either have to drop it or the whole or part of Konix be bought out.again rumours Amstrad and Atari were looking at Konix.....

Belt Up! talked of the Multi-System chair being re-designed again.This time re-jigged to make drive mech.quieter and faster, previousily chair used a set of gears, these were then replaced with vinyl belts to give the essential speed and volume, but Konix did'nt want to go into too much detail.

2 of said belts connected to chair, 1 from front-back, the other side-side.These driven by motors which tilted chair in desired direction.Konix saying at this time release date for chair brought forward to late 1990 with Multi-System itself due sometime before Xmas 1990.Zero made comment elsewhere on page that Konix been promising console for past 6 months....
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: onthinice on August 17, 2013, 20:06:15 PM
Sometimes, the added price to enjoy the full extent of a system can out right ruin the chances of owning one.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 18, 2013, 06:49:02 AM
Thanks for posting that scanned article from EGM, onthinice.  :24:
* questioning so soon the commercial viability of the proposed chair given the likely high price
* mentioning that the chair "moves painfully slow"
* the highly optimistic manner in which they presented the claimed system specs
* news of games devs supposedly having admitted they'd be struggling to finish KMS games "by the end of the year"
* the statement that two KMS consoles could be linked together for local networked two-player gaming
* that a "graphics/sound package" was "reportedly under development"

All interesting stuff!  :1:

Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Konix Kliffhanger (way it's spelt) talked of how Konix had over streched itself, cash wise, with the Multi-System project and were left 'reeling' after Epyx, who owed them a stack of cash for all the Speedking Joysticks they'd been disributing, went bust...

Fascinating information, RT. Given that it was essentially the Tramiel operated Atari Corp. that forced Epyx to go belly up (due to financial issues pertaining to the Handy/Lynx) which, according to that article you've referenced, subsequently played a part in Konix's demise too it kinda makes it all the more perverse that some of the same guys who worked on the KMS chipset went on to work in partnership with the same Tramiel operated Atari Corp. in designing the later released Atari Jaguar!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 18, 2013, 09:12:45 AM
ACE had also reported on it's look at Konix you could plug 2nd Konix into a 1st for 2-player gaming, but not sure which games planned to make use of it.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 18, 2013, 09:31:59 AM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
ACE had also reported on it's look at Konix you could plug 2nd Konix into a 1st for 2-player gaming, but not sure which games planned to make use of it.

Page 2 of the EGM mentions only Tunnels of Doom as a KMS game that was slated to utilise such functionality.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 18, 2013, 09:48:05 AM
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
ACE had also reported on it's look at Konix you could plug 2nd Konix into a 1st for 2-player gaming, but not sure which games planned to make use of it.

Page 2 of the EGM mentions only Tunnels of Doom as a KMS game that was slated to utilise such functionality.

The wonder that is ('nt) I.E on 360 means i'll have to fire up PS3 or iPad to read said EGM scans.

360:The Konix of this generation? promised a lot, fell way short on many levels...lol
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 18, 2013, 10:14:42 AM
The article describes Tunnels of Doom as a "futuristic race game". Given that description and the word 'tunnels' being in the title I'm guessing it was a STUN Runner-type affair.

EDIT: Here's some info' on the game including a video -
http://www.konixmultisystem.co.uk/index.php?id=games&content=tunnelsofdoom#start (http://http)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 18, 2013, 10:21:28 AM
Re: the aforementioned "that a "graphics/sound package" was "reportedly under development"",

I'm guessing that was EGM referring to this precursor from Jeff Minter to his VLM for Jag CD -
http://www.konixmultisystem.co.uk/index.php?id=games&content=artandmusictoy#start (http://http)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on August 18, 2013, 11:34:36 AM
Quote
To me this had killer title written all over it. It's a shame the concept never made it to market, even on another system, but it was certainly a viable project, and having come from a simple tech demo knocked up by Fred Gill of ATD as a proof of concept, it is all the more impressive. The concept was sold to another company but sadly we didn't see it materialize into a game - Jon Dean recalls "They [ATD] had work in progress on TUNNELS OF DOOM but it was in its early stages. I subsequently sold the idea to MIRRORSOFT and we were creating it for a bunch of systems - but when Robert Maxwell went swimming, that as the end of Mirrorsoft, and we eventually gave up on TUNNELS." It's sad to see this one get away.

He also went on to say "TUNNELS OF DOOM would have been a killer app too; fast, very colourful, could have been controlled differently using any of the system configs and would have been a dream in the chair; in game style, it would most closely resemble WIPEOUT that came many years later."

Given that I happen to know Fred Gill, who also programmed CyberMorph, this might be something to ask him about!!!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Gorf on August 18, 2013, 16:39:07 PM
Trying to sell a system because it had a cool chair is hardly good marketing. Clearly the chair/seat/toilet
what have you would have been quite expensive and not in the average Joe's gaming budget. You need to
establish a cost effective killer system with software first. Have the developers add the options for the chair
in the code, get the system out to the public and a good reason why Atari, Sega and Nintendo loyalists
should want it, sell a ton of them, then maybe the chair would mean something useful from a marketing
point of view...not a gamers point of view. Example is, how many gamers would love to go out and buy
the latest in arcade machines but never would because of the cost?

At the time they were developing this system, they were already thinking behind the times with the color
limits, processor type and over-embellished, not practical peripherals. Yes, the Jaguar VR was certainly a
neat item, but how many people would have been able to afford it?

No one is arguing that the chair is not a cool or fun thing, just how practical and bottom line effective
from a business point of view. Money talks, like it or not.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 18, 2013, 18:18:00 PM
I'd guess the chair was being used to help generate the hype at various trade shows/press events, get a 'buzz' around the system, but indeed it was well beyond the range of your average gamer, so a meaningless selling tool in terms of a 'killer App', but then i never saw 256 colour versions of things like Star Ray, Last Ninja, Hammerfist etc, think it needed killer exclusives of it's own (StarGlider III would probably of sold it to me) and the ports it did get, really needed to use the changeable controls.Run The Gauntlet seemed to have the write approach, but never the chair, nor moudable controls were going to be an ounce of good for a lot of arcade and ST/Amiga conversions.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on August 18, 2013, 18:37:18 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote
To me this had killer title written all over it. It's a shame the concept never made it to market, even on another system, but it was certainly a viable project, and having come from a simple tech demo knocked up by Fred Gill of ATD as a proof of concept, it is all the more impressive. The concept was sold to another company but sadly we didn't see it materialize into a game - Jon Dean recalls "They [ATD] had work in progress on TUNNELS OF DOOM but it was in its early stages. I subsequently sold the idea to MIRRORSOFT and we were creating it for a bunch of systems - but when Robert Maxwell went swimming, that as the end of Mirrorsoft, and we eventually gave up on TUNNELS." It's sad to see this one get away.

He also went on to say "TUNNELS OF DOOM would have been a killer app too; fast, very colourful, could have been controlled differently using any of the system configs and would have been a dream in the chair; in game style, it would most closely resemble WIPEOUT that came many years later."

Given that I happen to know Fred Gill, who also programmed CyberMorph, this might be something to ask him about!!!

Depending on your relationship with him (if you're friends rather than like me, just having his e-mail address) It may be worth asking him some more. I've already interviewed him and I feel, although he was forthcoming to some extent that he was being weary of me as I basically come to him cold with no introduction from a trusted connection.

He may have a bit more to share with a friend. He would be a great resource as him AND Brian Pollock both worked on the Jag and Multisystem, and Fred was there all the way through the Konix's life. He was also involved in the Panther - so (I am wildly speculating with nothing to back up my claims) he may have more details or maybe even some code from the Panther games he was involved in.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on August 18, 2013, 18:40:55 PM
Fred helped me with Jaguar article for the new Retro Gamer and we have spoke quite a bit via email recently and he told me some cracking stories. I was introduced to him via ex-Atari UK boss Darryl Still who is a good friend of his. I am hoping to do another interview with him soon for here, so see how we go.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 18, 2013, 18:56:49 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Fred helped me with Jaguar article for the new Retro Gamer and we have spoke quite a bit via email recently and he told me some cracking stories. I was introduced to him via ex-Atari UK boss Darryl Still who is a good friend of his. I am hoping to do another interview with him soon for here, so see how we go.

Fingers crossed you do get an interview for here, sooo many comments made by him in 2 past interviews with Edge+1 feature, i want to raise with him.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 23, 2013, 15:53:07 PM
Konix listed the following software houses as those who had 'agreed' to produce software:

E.A, US Gold, Mirrorsoft, system 3, Palace, Thalamus, Logotron, Electrocoin+Linel, with Konix doing an 'own label' headed up by ex-Activision man, Jon dean.


But you look at what the actual publishers/software houses were saying and you had likes of Palace saying they were considering bringing Barbarian across to Konix.so nothing set in stone and would have been what, a 256 colour Amiga port?.

Reading through a few magazine letters pages, not everyone was convinced Konix would deliver on the hardware claims, let alone the chair would come in at promised price, so doubts there from day 1, plus question was put:just how much it cost to repair the chair when it broke down?.Others brought up very valid question of wether developers would even really bother to tap into the extra power of the Konix, as the Amiga, despite it's 4096 colours, better sound and a Blitter, was still suffering 'ST-Ports', so guess Konix would have had a lot to prove to many cynical punters out there at the time.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 24, 2013, 17:09:46 PM
Also, i know Run The Gauntlet was planning to make good use of the console control configurations, but was it really that much of a great game to start with?.

The One gave both ST+Amiga versions 72%.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Gorf on August 24, 2013, 22:33:37 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
I'd guess the chair was being used to help generate the hype at various trade shows/press events, get a 'buzz' around the system, but indeed it was well beyond the range of your average gamer, so a meaningless selling tool in terms of a 'killer App', but then i never saw 256 colour versions of things like Star Ray, Last Ninja, Hammerfist etc, think it needed killer exclusives of it's own (StarGlider III would probably of sold it to me) and the ports it did get, really needed to use the changeable controls.Run The Gauntlet seemed to have the write approach, but never the chair, nor moudable controls were going to be an ounce of good for a lot of arcade and ST/Amiga conversions.

Even still...if you are touting a chair module as a feature of the system, most people are going to think that they'd need that chair to properly enjoy the system and as a result possibly look at the system as out of their reach.
Quite honestly, I've seen nothing but specs and a few demos for this system and none of which were enough
based on video gaming history that would make me think it would have worked. Not that it could not have, but I
can't imagine that this was going to go anywhere based on it's specs alone.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 24, 2013, 22:56:52 PM
Quote from: "Gorf"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
I'd guess the chair was being used to help generate the hype at various trade shows/press events, get a 'buzz' around the system, but indeed it was well beyond the range of your average gamer, so a meaningless selling tool in terms of a 'killer App', but then i never saw 256 colour versions of things like Star Ray, Last Ninja, Hammerfist etc, think it needed killer exclusives of it's own (StarGlider III would probably of sold it to me) and the ports it did get, really needed to use the changeable controls.Run The Gauntlet seemed to have the write approach, but never the chair, nor moudable controls were going to be an ounce of good for a lot of arcade and ST/Amiga conversions.

Even still...if you are touting a chair module as a feature of the system, most people are going to think that they'd need that chair to properly enjoy the system and as a result possibly look at the system as out of their reach.
Quite honestly, I've seen nothing but specs and a few demos for this system and none of which were enough
based on video gaming history that would make me think it would have worked. Not that it could not have, but I
can't imagine that this was going to go anywhere based on it's specs alone.

I still feel the concept of the mouldable controller being part of the console itself was and still is, leagues ahead of anything Atari, CBM, Sega, Nintendo, MS+Sony came up with afterwards and it'd been outstanding to see a British console shake up the industry, the more i've read and researched with each new post i make on here, the less i feel Konix was going to do anything, based on the software line-up.

256 colour versions of existing Amiga titles, with bonus control options, if lucky, just would'nt have done it.as i posted earlier, doubts were there that developers would really tap into hardware, you had people like Palace just 'considering' porting over existing software.

It would have been a catch-22 situation, software houses not developing software written for Konix 1st until userbase got established, public holding off until system saw exclusive, killer software.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 25, 2013, 17:56:09 PM
Actually, more i think on it, more i just cannot fathom some of the logic around the 'handling' of the entire Konix system.Here you have a concept, which to me, has it's key strength built around the fact you could morp it between yoke, steering wheel+handlebars, something no other system then offered and yet you decide to show it off with titles that either need another expensive andl arge add on (the chair) or are just tarted up Amiga ports.

AMC'89 i see as the Konix flagship title, but the only hardware based thing it used on Konix was the chair, was it not?

Bikers, from i understand of it, was pretty average until you introduced the aspect of the chair and then it came into it's own.

StarRay:Amiga port with more colours, depth-of-field effects and parallax layers, but still an Amiga game at it's roots.

Run The Gauntlet whilst being an average ST/Amiga game (adding ACE ST review score of 647 to 1 posted earlier) but at least that would of showcased the controllers potential.

Would:Hammerfist, Manchester United FC, LN2, Vendetta etc?.

Did they have the wrong person or people in charge of getting the software ready/produced for shows and console launch or were the software houses really that unwilling at that stage, to devote resources into coding Konix specific versions of existing ST/Amiga games?.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Gorf on August 27, 2013, 00:20:43 AM
I think you are missing the point here RT....no one is denying that the chair would have been cool....FOR PEOPLE THAT COULD AFFORD IT! You know as well as anyone that a system, to be successful to the masses, which is what
any console depends on, must be affordable. It is the same point I argued when Atari started touting the VR helmet.
Yeah...really cool idea but get the fucking Jaguar market viable first and spend your time and energy on getting
some REAL tools to the developers so we can quickly port all the hits of that day over, instead of making everyone
have to re-write everything.

The chair like the VR helmet, Jag Modem, lynx as controller were all putting the cart before the horse.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 27, 2013, 00:49:22 AM
Quote from: "Gorf"
I think you are missing the point here RT....no one is denying that the chair would have been cool....FOR PEOPLE THAT COULD AFFORD IT! You know as well as anyone that a system, to be successful to the masses, which is what
any console depends on, must be affordable. It is the same point I argued when Atari started touting the VR helmet.
Yeah...really cool idea but get the fucking Jaguar market viable first and spend your time and energy on getting
some REAL tools to the developers so we can quickly port all the hits of that day over, instead of making everyone
have to re-write everything.

The chair like the VR helmet, Jag Modem, lynx as controller were all putting the cart before the horse.

Beg to differ as my point is, rather than use the chair to promote the system, which is what i assume they did at trade shows etc, they should have had games that A)Were'nt on the Amiga to start with, B)Used the mouldable controller options and then C)Used the chair as a bonus feature.


Instead they seemed to take delight in having P.R shots of Jeff Minter sat in the chair, when i'm not sure AMC even used it.If you read the letters pages, people just were'nt seemingly taken in by prospect of more colourful, faster Amiga ports, so i'm wondering why on earth an effort was'nt made to get developers working on games that used the controller 1st and then the chair later.

But from what little i know of the system:Bikers and Sailing would have been pretty run of the mill, minus the chair.So, yes you needed games to sell the chair, but far more importantly, you needed games to sell the bloody console 1st.

Minter spoke of being drawn to the Jaguar because it was so easy to code for, he refered to it as being as straight forward as using the ST, i know he used other chips than just the 6800 with Tempest, but (and i'll get shot down for this as well), looking at Defender 2000, his Jaguar coding seemed to take a step backwards with Defender 2000, it looked like an Amiga game at best.


As for Jaguar Home V.R:Bandwagon jumped on there by Atari.Sega tried a home V.R system for MD, dropped it, Hasbro sunk millions into a home V.r system before abandoning entire project and yet Atari tried to convince us they could make it feasable for that price?
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 27, 2013, 01:31:43 AM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
... but (and i'll get shot down for this as well), looking at Defender 2000, his Jaguar coding seemed to take a step backwards with Defender 2000

Blame Atari's constant flip flopping on what they wanted from that game rather than blaming Minter himself.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Gorf on August 27, 2013, 03:16:43 AM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Quote from: "Gorf"
I think you are missing the point here RT....no one is denying that the chair would have been cool....FOR PEOPLE THAT COULD AFFORD IT! You know as well as anyone that a system, to be successful to the masses, which is what
any console depends on, must be affordable. It is the same point I argued when Atari started touting the VR helmet.
Yeah...really cool idea but get the fucking Jaguar market viable first and spend your time and energy on getting
some REAL tools to the developers so we can quickly port all the hits of that day over, instead of making everyone
have to re-write everything.

The chair like the VR helmet, Jag Modem, lynx as controller were all putting the cart before the horse.

Beg to differ as my point is, rather than use the chair to promote the system, which is what i assume they did at trade shows etc, they should have had games that A)Were'nt on the Amiga to start with, B)Used the mouldable controller options and then C)Used the chair as a bonus feature.


Instead they seemed to take delight in having P.R shots of Jeff Minter sat in the chair, when i'm not sure AMC even used it.If you read the letters pages, people just were'nt seemingly taken in by prospect of more colourful, faster Amiga ports, so i'm wondering why on earth an effort was'nt made to get developers working on games that used the controller 1st and then the chair later.

But from what little i know of the system:Bikers and Sailing would have been pretty run of the mill, minus the chair.So, yes you needed games to sell the chair, but far more importantly, you needed games to sell the bloody console 1st.

Minter spoke of being drawn to the Jaguar because it was so easy to code for, he refered to it as being as straight forward as using the ST, i know he used other chips than just the 6800 with Tempest, but (and i'll get shot down for this as well), looking at Defender 2000, his Jaguar coding seemed to take a step backwards with Defender 2000, it looked like an Amiga game at best.


As for Jaguar Home V.R:Bandwagon jumped on there by Atari.Sega tried a home V.R system for MD, dropped it, Hasbro sunk millions into a home V.r system before abandoning entire project and yet Atari tried to convince us they could make it feasable for that price?

The problem is they did not promote the system that way. They promoted it with a chair out of the average
gamers budget. Woulda shoulda coulda ...you know where that leads us.

Tempest 2k uses a lot of 68k code. The sources are available for any one to see that. I am quite sure
he used lots of the 68k on D2k as well. Lot's of frame drops in both games. Usually a result of overuse
of the 68k. That chip should have been used to boot the system, set up the levels and stopped. Let the
GPU take over in main and local depending on the need for speed or not. Have the DSP assist the GPU
is math while doing sound and input. Let the Blitter and the OPL have the bus completely during render
time and no game should have ever dropped below 60 FPS. Use low poly counts.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 27, 2013, 11:43:10 AM
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
... but (and i'll get shot down for this as well), looking at Defender 2000, his Jaguar coding seemed to take a step backwards with Defender 2000

Blame Atari's constant flip flopping on what they wanted from that game rather than blaming Minter himself.

Much as i'd love to, on this occ.no can do.

You've only to look at AMC'89 on Konix to see that same over-sized ship etc.Much as i love Jeff's work on the light synth stuff, Hover B., original Attack Of Mutant Camels, Llamatron, Tempest 2000 etc, he's no graphics designer (something he himself admits) and he is'nt the person i'd get to do Defender remake.

I paid full price for Defender 2000 on Jaguar, had such hugh hopes after brillance of Tempest 2K and i know 1 minute it was a Jag CD game, then a cart game etc, but it does'nt alter fact that for me, Jeff was always in danger of dropping the ball somewhat with Defender.


I will add Midway did exactly the same, if not worse with the PS2/Xbox Defender, very brown!.

Personally feel someone like Archer Maclean only person to really do a Defender style game justice.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 27, 2013, 13:24:25 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
... but (and i'll get shot down for this as well), looking at Defender 2000, his Jaguar coding seemed to take a step backwards with Defender 2000

Blame Atari's constant flip flopping on what they wanted from that game rather than blaming Minter himself.

Much as i'd love to, on this occ.no can do.

You've only to look at AMC'89 on Konix to see that same over-sized ship etc...

Atari reputedly instructed Minter to make the ship the size it was in Defender 2000. Presumably because they thought it'd look more impressive to prospective customers when viewing screenshots. Prior to that the ship was said to be of a more sensible size closer to that of in Defender.

Yes, the size of the ship in AotMC '89 does look to be oversized but do remember that game was never released and so presumably wasn't finished. Maybe if the KMS had have been launched then Minter would have made some changes to said game before it was released. Judging him on the basis of what may have been an early build isn't perhaps the fairest thing to do, imo.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Alberto 2K on August 27, 2013, 14:45:55 PM
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
... but (and i'll get shot down for this as well), looking at Defender 2000, his Jaguar coding seemed to take a step backwards with Defender 2000

Blame Atari's constant flip flopping on what they wanted from that game rather than blaming Minter himself.

Much as i'd love to, on this occ.no can do.

You've only to look at AMC'89 on Konix to see that same over-sized ship etc...

Atari reputedly instructed Minter to make the ship the size it was in Defender 2000. Presumably because they thought it'd look more impressive to prospective customers when viewing screenshots. Prior to that the ship was said to be of a more sensible size closer to that of in Defender.
Yes, I always read that about Defender 2000, I don't think it's a bad game tough, it's just that you end playing looking more to the radar than to the game itself but it is fun.

I also think the speed on both, T2K and D2K, is fast enough, more speed would have made them almost unplayable, specially D2K. :)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 27, 2013, 16:38:52 PM
@DC:A large/oversized ship been part 'n' parcel of Jeff's Defender games for as long as i can remember.On ST 'Andes Attack (ST update of Jeff's Vic-20 game) and Defender 2, both had it.AMC'89 just seemed to be him following suit on newer hardware.If he ever agrees to an interview, i'd love to ask him why he's  always had this trait.

So i'm 'judging' him not just on the Konix or Jaguar games, but his earlier work.Maybe Jeff just likes really big ships, lol.

On similar theme, i was never a fan of the big, redesigned main sprite on console (Game Gear etc) versions of Dropzone.No idea why they changed that either.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on August 27, 2013, 19:26:27 PM
Ah, now that puts things into a greater context. Cheers, RT.

In the case of D2K maybe Minter had learned from previous 'mistakes' (re: oversized ship) and consequently made the game's ship smaller more like in the original Defender. Being told by Atari to make it oversized again may well have bemused him I suspect.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on August 27, 2013, 19:30:38 PM
I own Minter's version of Defender 2 for the Atari ST and never thought the ship was too big:

ATARI ST DEFENDER II (2) (INCLUDES DEFENDER 1 AND DEFENDER 2 AND STARGATE) (http://http)
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 27, 2013, 19:36:44 PM
Was too big for me, but then, as we've discussed on here, i don't like the one in Defender 2000, others don't find it to be the same issue i do.

Pure personal preference.

Obvio......


No, not going there.

 :21:
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 27, 2013, 19:40:36 PM
Quote from: "DreamcastRIP"
Ah, now that puts things into a greater context. Cheers, RT.

In the case of D2K maybe Minter had learned from previous 'mistakes' (re: oversized ship) and consequently made the game's ship smaller more like in the original Defender. Being told by Atari to make it oversized again may well have bemused him I suspect.

Jeff doing modern versions of... or his takes on Tempest and Robotron:take my money!!!!


Jeff doing the above but on Defender:think i'll pass ta, any chance Archer Mclean can have a crack at it?

And this is in no way a disrespct to Jeff, just from pure gaming exp.as ST and then Jaguar owner (and in case of Dropzone:A8, C64+SNES owner) i know who's approach has worked best, for myself.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Gorf on August 29, 2013, 00:47:11 AM
Welp....as with RT, I too was extremely disappointed in D2k for the Jaguar. I thought Defender Plus should
have been the 2000 version and left well enough alone. The actual 2000 version reminded me of a graphically
superior 2600 version....for the 2600...yes...fine....not for the Jaguar. The 2000 version should have been
a 3D polygon based version actually.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Gorf on August 29, 2013, 00:51:51 AM
Quote from: "The Laird"
I own Minter's version of Defender 2 for the Atari ST and never thought the ship was too big:

Gack! Yuck...that's rather awful! Would have expected more from Jeff on this one
considering Lamatron and all.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on August 29, 2013, 07:23:20 AM
Quote from: "Gorf"
Quote from: "The Laird"
I own Minter's version of Defender 2 for the Atari ST and never thought the ship was too big:

Gack! Yuck...that's rather awful! Would have expected more from Jeff on this one
considering Lamatron and all.

Now perhaps people might get an idea why i personally don't feel Jeff is the guy to do Defender...
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Gorf on August 29, 2013, 20:59:08 PM
No, I've seen better versions of Defender or Defender like clones from him that were pretty good.
Although, he really needs to lay off the sheep and bovine creatures....pretty creepy actually! :13:
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on September 29, 2013, 23:35:54 PM
Been reading Jeff Minters thoughts on the hardware and yet again, i've come away thinking machine just would have struggled in the long term on a number of grounds, not least it would have been a bit of a nightmare for coders to work on (Jeff describes the sound hardware as peculiar, having a DSP that you basically created your own soundchip on) and whilst it was an interesting system to him-1st time he'd had access to a true, 256 colour display, he talks of no sprite hardware and it not being blazingly fast, but certainly having enough speed avaiable to be useful.

More comments i read from developers who worked on it, it just does'nt seem to have the punch, i feel, it'd needed to really deliver games that would have done the mouldable controls, justice.

I fear it would have been home to far too many enhanced Amiga ports, more colours etc, but little to really make it stand tall.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: DreamcastRIP on September 30, 2013, 00:56:41 AM
All sounds fair to me based on what I've read, RT.

I suppose it also depends on what system spec' one is referring to when discussing the various merits and demerits of the KMS.

If they'd released what was proposed back in 1988/'89 then, like you say, we'd have been looking at some sort of consolised 'Amiga 1.5' (if you follow my meaning), i.e. a console markedly superior to the SMS and NES but not on a par with the Mega Drive (which was of course released in Japan back in '88). As far as I'm aware most of the KMS game screenshots and video footage was from around this time too.

The more I've read it seems the planned system spec' changed over the proceeding years so I don't know how capable that iteration of the KMS would have proved relative to what I've referred to above. That said, if my understanding is correct, the main change was only to give it more RAM so, while obviously welcome, we're not likely talking of a huge boost in its capabilities. As Gorf has commented the console was to feature the somewhat limited Intel 8086 for its CPU which doesn't exactly inspire much confidence.

I just had a look on Wikipedia and discovered the 8086 was late 1970s tech' -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_8086 (http://http)

A CPU most notably used in the likes of the Amstrad PCW range, an IBM word-processing machine and some crusty old desktop and laptop PCs from the very early '80s. Oh dear!  :o
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: Rogue Trooper on September 30, 2013, 01:49:48 AM
Yeah, i'm seeing the hardware as something like an Amiga alternative, ie it could out-do the Amiga in certain areas, but the more you wanted from it, the more trade-off's you'd have to be willing to make, it's strength seemed to be just how flexible it could be, if you wanted to 'code to the metal' as it were, but it really seemed to lack the sheer processing power to really make games that 'blew the Amiga away'.


Jeff's comments just the latest that seem to say if you were looking at coding for it, you'd be needing to be juggling resources on the fly, trading speed for detail, writing a lot of your own routines, reducing number of sound channels etc etc, so a bloody headache i'd guess for coders used to writing games for say Amiga 1st, then reducing colours etc for ST, but developing for Konix would have meant whole new learning curve.

Would they really have put the extra effort in, when it'd been far easier to port existing games to say the MD, which featured similar hardware to ST/Amiga (68000 CPU).

No developer really seems to have come away saying OMG!!! The power of this thing was just amazing!-It would have cleaned up.At best, they seem to describe it as interesting.

Developers asked for the Ram increase, questioned the entire constant reading of data from the disk drive, the claimed 'anti-piracy' measures and i believe the original design for system was an 8 Bit Z80, they just went for the 8086 to bring hardware into realm of being a 16 Bit machine.CPU supposed to only be a controlling chip i think, but if likes of Jeff are saying it was'nt all that fast, system had no sprite hardware and you had to programme the DSP to turn it into a sound chip, i reallt think they'd have needed to either replace it with a 68000 or added some other maths based chip to help it out as the system would have suffered the sort of bottle neck issues Saturn/PS2 suffered, surely as things had to wait for others to be processed.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on April 29, 2014, 08:53:03 AM
Bit of thread necromancy here, but I thought you'd appreciate an update of sorts.

I have kind of given up on the website - it's been running for god... it must be about 7 years or more now and I've pretty much dug through every link and cross reference to anyone or anything related to this topic that I could find.

After thinning them out, I've got about 4 contacts who I believe have a wealth of information and potentially have hardware, software, documents and other stuff that could be shared with the public, but for some reason all of my contacts but for one who has explained his reasons for being difficult to contact have been maintaining total radio silence for whatever reason despite all seeming happy to help at first.

We'll see if my last good contact is able to help, fingers crossed!

So to that end, unless anything else comes rolling in unsolicited, I am so tired of chasing everyone (and totally frustrated because I KNOW some of these people have real hoards of info and maybe some hardware/software) that I'm giving up the chase.

I'm not giving up the website - I think it'll stand as a definitive archive of everything that's publicly know up to now. If anyone contacts me with anything else then I'll follow it up, and if Lee is able to find spare time to continue the emulator development I'll help him out and keep the world updated, but I think I've been beaten.

Of course - if I get a storm of e-mail responses out of the blue, then the game's back on and I'll follow it all up.

The ultimate mission obviously is to find a full playable game or two, and to get a prototype console, or full working dev-kit and a power chair together and put them on public display (maybe in the Cambridge Computer Museum (Cambridge being the home of Flare).
Not sure if I'll ever see the day, but this is the goal. Of course, it would be great to own this stuff myself, but
I'd much rather it was shared. The power chair owner is keeping it in a spare room and doesn't do anything with it - this is a tragedy, but it's his prerogative. It'll be such a crying shame that it'll probably end-up crushed in a council dump one day.

So, thatís all I have to say. I havenít exhausted every avenue of investigation, but it has exhausted me!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: zapiy on April 29, 2014, 09:55:04 AM
That's a shame pal but I know where your coming from. I really do need to have your site linked on our frontpage as it's such and important piece of world gaming history let alone UK.

Can we help in anyway? Obviously don't let the site go as
We could help there if you get frustrated. Either way fella keep us informed. 
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on April 29, 2014, 10:26:04 AM
Don't worry, the site's not going away. I'm just not tirelessly chasing people anymore. I'll be happy if the contacts come good or if anyone pops up with something else - I'll happily keep the website up to date with those sorts of developments, I'm just tired of looking for more or trying to tie up loose ends.

I'm not sure what you can do to help... but anything would be appreciated.
I'm sure there must be people out there who worked in the Konix factory, I'd love to hear some of their stories, but seemingly only 4 people ever worked there - anyone else (the people that actually manufactured, tested ,developed, shipped - whatever the joysticks and Multisystem bits) seemingly must be a figment of my imagination!
If you can put out feelers for finding these people, someone must have stories from the shop floor - pictures from inside the factory...
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: zapiy on April 29, 2014, 10:46:40 AM
Good points

We need to start a "get the info" campaign.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: TL on April 29, 2014, 19:40:46 PM
Thanks for the update Mark, it's a shame that people have to drag their heels like this.

I feel your pain though, I have exactly the same problems when trying to do articles for Retro Gamer - I find out some fantastic info and find the source and then they won't talk. I know of a ton of amazing Jaguar prototypes that are out there for example, but people just don't want them being shared.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: zapiy on December 01, 2014, 20:39:46 PM
[member=4397]mqarkcambie[/member] hows this info collecting going pal, anymore you can share with us?
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on December 02, 2014, 12:14:55 PM
Hi, unfortunately, it's all ground to a halt.

The guy with the power chair is still just that - some guy with a power chair. He'll never let anyone else see it (even just for a few months loan in a museum somewhere). He'll never sell it, and it's just going to be thrown out by his relatives when he dies. I can see it crumbling into rust in some council landfill.

The guy that claimed he had a garage full of liquidated Konix assets in a lock-up in Brighton including software backups of all the games, numerous devkits, prototypes, documents, etc was most probably full of shit as he never came through with any proof of owning any of this stuff and just kept making up stories of having offered it to collectors in the US and Japan (doubling the claimed price that they were supposedly offering for it each time).

The guy that did the Music for the MSU devkit who went to China with the programmer to train them how to write games for the system is maintaining radio silence. He says he has an MSU era devkit and unfortunately has seemingly vanished off the face of the earth. I guess I did something to turn him off talking with me. HE was actually suggesting selling it on ebay, I've never seen him trying.

The Emulator most probably got stalled as the emulator programmer changed companies and probably has many other things on his hands, all completely understandable, and it's a hobby project, so his free time is totally his to do what he sees fit with. Hoping he gets back into it one day, but i won't pester him.

A programmer who is potentially sitting on a full/complete/finished Konix game is a little difficult to reach, this game would need to be emulated, but it's an actual, real, finished Konix game - but even if it does get backed up from the floppys it's on, it will possibly get stuck in legal hell as the intellectual property owner may have an issue (even today) with us releasing it.
(This is previously unannounced, so this is a little bit of an exclusive here - but it's not that exclusive unless anything actually happens, and I've been sitting on it for a few years now...).

Finally, the guy who used to work at Konix who's said to know loads and who has a big fat book full of Konix info is someone I can't contact as his daughter won't pass his e-mail address on to me, and I don't want to pester her anymore. All I have is the answer "he has your email address, he'd contact you if he wants to talk to you".

I don't really see any way forward, I've tirelessly and painstakingly researched and interviewed and tracked down everyone possible, and I'm now very tired and lacking any kind of desire to continue.

If someone else manages to turn up anything then that's great and I'll jump right on it, but as it stands, unless other people decide to start sharing then what we have is probably all we will have.

I will always take contributions if people find magazine scans worth hosting - and I'll consider following some leads depending how promising they look, but for the meantime...

...this is Mark signing out!
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: zapiy on December 02, 2014, 13:27:55 PM
Thanks for that huge update fella.

Its a huge shame that you have struggled to get to the bottom of some of the things you have been chasing.. That news on a completely finished game is huge news to me, what is it called? Would be fantastic if you do eventually manage to bag that on.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: mqarkcambie on December 02, 2014, 16:36:21 PM
I can't say without giving a lot away, but it's one of the ones you definitely know about from the line up of launch games. It sounds like BS, I know, but with the amount of work I've put into this website - you can see that when I say something is there, you can be sure it's there...

You never know in this game, sometimes people come along out of the blue with huge news, I somehow get the feeling that's less and less likely to happen as time goes by - but you never know.
Title: Re: The Konix Multi-System
Post by: zapiy on December 29, 2014, 23:27:05 PM
No your right, you never know pal.. Its worth going just for that reason.. I keep asking during our interviews just in the hope that someone has worked on this and your not aware. :113: