Retro Video Gamer

Welcome to Retro Video Gamer => Retro News & Chat => Topic started by: TL on May 03, 2013, 23:20:15 PM

Title: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 03, 2013, 23:20:15 PM
I was watching AVGN's Atari 2600 sports games video (http://http) again and posting in TrekMD's "Evolution Of . . ." threads and started thinking about just how far certain genres and types of games came in just one generation.

In the 80's especially we saw dramatic leaps in just about every aspect of gaming as the video game market grew exponentially. So what games can you think of that really show this kind of progression, especially within the confines of the same hardware.

Here are a nice group of games from the Atari 2600 which really show a dramatic progression:

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/atari2600/Indy500.png)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/atari2600/Sprint.png)
Indy 500 (1977) Sprint Master (1988)

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/atari2600/StarShip.jpg)  (http://img.over-blog.com/320x210/0/01/12/00/s/Solaris--1986---Atari-_8.png)
Star Ship (1977) Solaris (1986)

(http://www.vizzed.com/videogames/a2600/screenshot/Front%20Line-2.png)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/atari2600/Commando.jpg)
Front Line (1984) Commando (1988)

(http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/fighters/karate-4.png)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/atari2600/KungFu.jpg)
Karate (1982) Kung Fu Master (1988)

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/atari2600/Football.png)  (http://www.atarimania.com/2600/screens/super_football_pal_3.gif)
Football (1978) Super Football (1988)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 03, 2013, 23:39:01 PM
I'm tempted to say on a modern front some '1st Gen' PS2 games, all PS 1.5 Textures, jaggies, low poly counts etc to the stunning God Of War 2, which could have passed for a launch 360 game.

On a Retro front...early C64 shoot em up's to likes of I.O, Katakis, Turrican 2, Armalyte etc

ST:Starglider to Star Glider 2.

Megadrive:Altered Beast to Toy Story, Adventures Of Batman+Robin.

Nes:cannot think of the sports games name, hypersports? to Track and Field 2.

Lot depends on commercial life of system and developer support, 2600 had long, long life, huge userbase, got games i never thought would be looked at converted along with original works.People really got creative with the hardware then, by PS2 era? your talking cross-platform development, licensced game engines, middleware etc.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TrekMD on May 03, 2013, 23:45:08 PM
That was the idea my "Evolution of..." threads. It is remarkable how much gaming advanced within just a system like the 2600 over the years. Super Football is truly and impressive game compared to its predecessor. Here is another great example, this time looking at arcade ports for the 2600:

Defender (Atari, 1982)
(http://videogamecritic.com/images/2600/defender.png)

Defender II/Stargate (Atari, 1987)
(http://videogamecritic.com/images/2600/defender_ii.png)

Of course, a lot of this progress came from the competition that was around with even better systems. :)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 03, 2013, 23:50:09 PM
One reason Gamestm's Conversion Catastrophe really got on my tits was when the Atari 2600 conversions of:

Double Dragon, Rampage+Tempest were featured.The 1st 2? bloody hell, how many years after the 2600 did the coin-ops appear? and as for Tempest? 1)It was only a prototype, 2)The hardware cannot generate complex geometric shapes with clarity, so how on earth could it hope to replicate the arcade machine?.

:-) So, i've given RG, Amstrad action and now Gamestm some stick today,Zzap i still won't let go over that C64 Op.Thunderbolt review...wondering how come EDGE has got off without a scratch? i must be mellowing with age.....
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 03, 2013, 23:51:11 PM
Quote from: "TrekMD"
That was the idea my "Evolution of..." threads.  It is remarkable how much gaming advanced within just a system like the 2600 over the years.  Super Football is truly and impressive game compared to its predecessor. 

Yes, this is just a spin-off of that idea to look at specific examples and cover multiple genres at at once etc.

I nearly put Defender / Defender II in my list actually, it's a perfect example of progress in a very short time.  :16:
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 04, 2013, 20:38:59 PM
Ok then, let's look at a different system for a moment. Here are a group of games from the Sega Master System which show a nice progression in quality:

(http://obsoletegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/4-Astro-Warrior.gif)  (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-l4i13nYTxPo/T19enpG3pOI/AAAAAAAAB90/CmTEoTrOqJQ/s320/xenon2megablast_00.jpg)
Astro Warrior (1987)  Xenon 2: Mega Blast (1991)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-RFpNhU3WXfk/Trlg_C6hZdI/AAAAAAAAA_M/uj2aiS8kjFs/s1600/black-belt-20080111044116320_640w.jpg)  (http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/Vigilante_SMS_ScreenShot2.gif)
Black Belt (1986) Vigilante (1988)

(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/37177-ghost-house-sega-master-system-screenshot-one-of-the-vampires.gif)  (http://blueskiesdaily.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/master-of-darkness-ue-004.jpg)
Ghost House (1986)  Master Of Darkness (1992)

(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/412550-great-soccer-sega-master-system-screenshot-ball-has-been-kicked.gif)  (http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/412456-fifa-international-soccer-sega-master-system-screenshot-on.gif)
Great Soccer (1987) FIFA Soccer (1993)

(http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/94177-f16-fighting-falcon-sega-master-system-screenshot-night-has.png)  (http://www.ramburglar.com/wp-content/upload/master%20system/gloc-air-battle.png)
F16 Fighting Falcon (1986) G-LOC: Air Battle (1991)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Crusto on May 04, 2013, 23:10:44 PM
I lack the nous to provide screenshots but I put forward R-Type for the CPC. Using the original 80's conversion compared with last years "remake"

Then you have the likes of drunken master for the PCE, a great showcase for the hardware on its release. A few years later the seemingly impossible is achieved with an excellent conversion of Street Fighter 2 being released. So good that it rivals the SNES and MD versions.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 04, 2013, 23:42:53 PM
Quote from: "Crusto"
I lack the nous to provide screenshots but I put forward R-Type for the CPC. Using the original 80's conversion compared with last years "remake"

Then you have the likes of drunken master for the PCE, a great showcase for the hardware on its release. A few years later the seemingly impossible is achieved with an excellent conversion of Street Fighter 2 being released. So good that it rivals the SNES and MD versions.

Good call . . . . . .

(http://www.amstradabandonware.com/mod/upload/ams_en/images/91/85/f3/ec/50/1c/67/4c/7c/78/84/64/a3/6e/7f/b3/r-type.png)  (http://indiegames.com/r-type%20cpc.png)
R-Type (1988)  R-Type (2012)

(http://www.videogameconsolelibrary.com/images/1980s/88_NEC_PC_Engine_CD-ROM2/PCE_CD2_Game-Fighting_Street.jpg)  (http://yannick.fleurit.free.fr/Culture/Dossier%20PC-Engine/Street%20Fighter%202'.jpg)
Fighting Street (1989) Street Fighter II (1993)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: zapiy on May 05, 2013, 18:20:56 PM
Its amazing what can be achieved we programmers and designers get to grips with the machines..
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TrekMD on May 05, 2013, 18:54:46 PM
Quote from: "zapiy"
Its amazing what can be achieved we programmers and designers get to grips with the machines..

Yep, this is definitely true!  As programmers learn more about the systems, they learn how to push them.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 06, 2013, 21:02:49 PM
Here are some games from the Atari ST:

(http://www.atarimania.com/st/screens/8_ball_4.gif)  (http://www.atarimania.com/st/screens/3d_pool_5.gif)
8-Ball (1986) 3D Pool (1989)
 
(http://www.atarimania.com/st/screens/alta%C3%AFr_ere_informatique_3.gif)  (http://www.atarimania.com/st/screens/lethal_xcess_12.gif)
Altair (1987) Lethal Xcess (1991)

(http://www.atarimania.com/st/screens/delta_patrol_2.gif)  (http://www.atarimania.com/st/screens/starray_logotron_5.gif)
Delta Patrol (1985) StarRay (1988)
 
(http://www.atarimania.com/st/screens/macadam_bumper_5.gif)  (http://www.atarimania.com/st/screens/obsession_uds_4.gif)
Macadam Bumper (1986)  Pinball Obsession (1994)

(http://www.atarimania.com/st/screens/fist_of_fury_kingsoft_2.gif)  (http://www.atarimania.com/st/screens/ik_plus_6.gif)
Fist Of Fury (1986)  IK+ (1988)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TrekMD on May 06, 2013, 21:08:14 PM
The Atari ST is fascinating also when looking at how games evolved for it.  With some games it's almost a 2600-type of evolution given how different games become on it. 
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 06, 2013, 22:44:55 PM
Quote from: "TrekMD"
The Atari ST is fascinating also when looking at how games evolved for it.  With some games it's almost a 2600-type of evolution given how different games become on it.

Yeah a lot of the early games just looked like 8-bit ones in higher resolution. I have tons more examples I can give for this system.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TrekMD on May 06, 2013, 23:35:18 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "TrekMD"
The Atari ST is fascinating also when looking at how games evolved for it.  With some games it's almost a 2600-type of evolution given how different games become on it.

Yeah a lot of the early games just looked like 8-bit ones in higher resolution. I have tons more examples I can give for this system.
That's cool!
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Bobinator on May 09, 2013, 00:21:18 AM
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT1D9_1A-95Qg1pY9egByOx-OQAMlCwrqrAPJh4xTZnd5siVC3G5Q)
(http://bulk.destructoid.com/ul/227966-preview-double-fine-adventures-into-the-cave/Cave05-620x.jpg)

Dizzy/The Cave

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSY4bPXLQMIo5f3FaUSLRl1zwVyWXi2uJ2px3gspEp1dwADFwrWg)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcShCIKntRVQBiDj9Gjjqk6qg6hLkbNWeM3wf8aAUH1-c4bRCS1w)
(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQm61m-Sj5jOLaQqfEwAewB3HxZyslZIqGaplQgRrB_X_Aou82lmw)

Double Dragon/The Punisher/God Hand


(http://www.retrogamer.net/users/345/thm450/mrwimpy.gif)
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcROvxZ-fjdGwrnnYfCV2nssnDrUsQBO4akODCfF4EH7-lghnejh)
(http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2008/12/doritosdash.jpg)

Mr. Whimpy/Cool Spot/Doritos Dash Of Destruction
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 09, 2013, 00:52:33 AM
Erm . . .

I think you missed the point of this thread  :35:
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Bobinator on May 09, 2013, 01:00:40 AM
Oh. I figured we were just showing how different genres have changed over the years, honestly. That'd make a good thread, too.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 09, 2013, 01:26:21 AM
Quote from: "Bobinator"
Oh. I figured we were just showing how different genres have changed over the years, honestly. That'd make a good thread, too.

You are right, it would!  :113:
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 09, 2013, 09:08:48 AM
Quote from: "Bobinator"
Oh. I figured we were just showing how different genres have changed over the years, honestly. That'd make a good thread, too.

it would and may i humbly suggest that as well as discussing how things have advanced , graphically, we also looked at how 'little' progress has been made in other areas in certain genres, ie A.I and when dealing with 3D instalments, how later versions still blighted by poor camera system.Just throwing in some ideas into the melting pot, thought it might add to the topic to see where focus has gone (ie better visuals-marketing dept love, but once novelty wears off, player stuck with dodgy camera, unresponsive controls etc, so, i'd be turning it on it's head slightly, we've come so far, yet travelled such a short distance?)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 11, 2013, 21:29:49 PM
Here is an interesting one, seen it was only on the market for a short time - the Atari Jaguar:

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/jag/Checkered_Flag.png)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/jagcd/worldtourracing.jpg)
Checkered Flag (1994)  World Tour Racing (1996)

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/jag/Cybermorph.jpg)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/jagcd/Battlemorph.jpg)
Cyber Morph (1993) Battle Morph (1995)

(http://s.uvlist.net/l/y2006/10/29224.jpg)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/jagcd/Native.jpg)
Crescent Galaxy (1993) Native (1997)

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/jag/TroyAikmen.png)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/jag/ArenaFootball.jpg)
Troy Aikmen NFL Football (1994)  Arena Football '95 (1995)

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/jag/Bubsy.jpg)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/jag/Rayman.jpg)
Bubsy (1994) Rayman (1995)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Crusto on May 13, 2013, 21:12:08 PM
Whoa, that native looks strikingly like another popular shoot em up from a few years previous..
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: davyk on May 14, 2013, 22:40:41 PM
Funny - I actually prefer the original Indy 500 (even the look!) to the more modern Sprint Master on the 2600...

But yeah - Star Ship was barely a game - Solaris on the other hand is a tech and game design miracle.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 15, 2013, 13:43:14 PM
Let's see some games from the Nintendo Entertainment System:

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/nes/MarioBros.jpg)  (http://www.christopherchandler.net/old/images/videogamereviews/SuperMario3firstlevel.gif)
Mario Bros. (1985) Super Mario Bros. 3 (1988)

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/nes/Pinball.jpg)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/nes/Pinbot.jpg)
Pinball (1985)  Pin*Bot(1990)

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/nes/UrbanChamp.jpg)  (http://img.gamefaqs.net/screens/d/3/6/gfs_39817_2_2.jpg)
Urban Champion (1985)  TMNT: Tournament Fighters (1993)

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/nes/Soccer.jpg)  (http://static2.dmcdn.net/static/video/688/656/34656886:jpeg_preview_source.jpg)
Soccer (1985) Konami Hyper Soccer (1992)

(http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/nes/Wrestling.jpg)  (http://www.online-nes.com/image/3566/260x240)
Pro. Wrestling (1987) WWF King Of The Ring (1993)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: onthinice on May 20, 2013, 09:25:35 AM
We have come so far, yet never reach full potential before being abandoned for the next console. :(
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 20, 2013, 17:50:43 PM
Quote from: "onthinice"
We have come so far, yet never reach full potential before being abandoned for the next console. :(

I dunno about that, I think systems like the NES, 2600, PS1, Mega Drive and SNES were pushed to their limits.

Systems like the 7800, Saturn, Jaguar, 3DO and 32X weren't though.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TrekMD on May 20, 2013, 19:45:10 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "onthinice"
We have come so far, yet never reach full potential before being abandoned for the next console. :(

I dunno about that, I think systems like the NES, 2600, PS1, Mega Drive and SNES were pushed to their limits.

Systems like the 7800, Saturn, Jaguar, 3DO and 32X weren't though.

I'd agree with that.  I am still waiting for a homebrewer to develop a game that takes the Jaguar to its limits.  Unfortunately, not seeing it happen but I keep hoping. 
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 22, 2013, 12:18:21 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "onthinice"
We have come so far, yet never reach full potential before being abandoned for the next console. :(

I dunno about that, I think systems like the NES, 2600, PS1, Mega Drive and SNES were pushed to their limits.

Systems like the 7800, Saturn, Jaguar, 3DO and 32X weren't though.

Not sure i'd agree concerning the saturn:

Games like:
- VF2, Last bronx running in high res mode at 60 FPS (VF2 Pal 704X512)

-Sonic R

-Quake (which had to be graphically toned down in places over early version in order to maintain speed/frame rate)

-D-xird (real time lighting)

-Games like the Digital Pinball games, decathlete, Winter Heat etc running in high res modes

-Burning Rangers clearly asking too much of the hardware (would have loved to have seen a DC version)


Not sure just what else likes of Treasure, Lobotomy, Travellers Tales, etc could have got out of it.

AM2's graphics libaries got more out of the system along the way, Lobotomy refined 3D engines, travellers tales pulled off all manner of lighting effects etc many considered impossible on the hardware.

Not forgetting Scavenger with Scorcher, lighting effects, fast 3D etc.they developed their own set of libaries to exploit the hardware's strengths.

The 'official' Saturn development system was made by Cross products (UK based company) formed by Ex-game coders from people behind Star strike, Carrier command, Bomber etc etc (Real Time Games and Vektor graphics), so i'm wondering who if anyone could have tapped further into Saturn hardware.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 22, 2013, 12:29:14 PM
Look at the demo version of Saturn Shenmue, that really shows what the machine could do in terms of 3D. No released game looked as amazing as that did.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 22, 2013, 12:44:22 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Look at the demo version of Saturn Shenmue, that really shows what the machine could do in terms of 3D. No released game looked as amazing as that did.

but it was exactly that a demo.as i said earlier, inital shots of Saturn Quake looked a lot more impressive than the final version, but comprimises had to be made in order to maintain overall quality of the game throughout.

Scavengers Saturn tech demo's looked far better than actual Saturn games  they produced, a 'rolling' 3D demo is not going to have factors like A.I etc, so are misleading.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 22, 2013, 12:48:16 PM
7800 i know little about.

32X? VF pretty much pushed that as far as it could go, 3D wise, but i would have loved to have seen how far things could go 2D wise.

Jaguar:I would have loved to have seen Quake finished and games such as Need For Speed and Daytona USa converted (rumours were they would be coming) only then would we really have seen how far machine could be pushed, but everything would depend on just how was handling the conversions from Saturn/3DO in case of last 2.

Would we have seen Jaguar CD games that (technically) were a big leap over likes of Hoverstrike CD/ Fight for Life (in terms of a 3D polygon engine with 2 texture mapped characters), Battlesphere and Battlemorph i wonder? or just improvements in a few areas?
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 22, 2013, 13:02:37 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
7800 i know little about.

32X? VF pretty much pushed that as far as it could go, 3D wise, but i would have loved to have seen how far things could go 2D wise.

Jaguar:I would have loved to have seen Quake finished and games such as Need For Speed and Daytona USa converted (rumours were they would be coming) only then would we really have seen how far machine could be pushed, but everything would depend on just how was handling the conversions from Saturn/3DO in case of last 2.

Would we have seen Jaguar CD games that (technically) were a big leap over likes of Hoverstrike CD/ Fight for Life (in terms of a 3D polygon engine with 2 texture mapped characters), Battlesphere and Battlemorph i wonder? or just improvements in a few areas?

I have been reliably informed by several Jaguar coders that the machine could have been pushed A LOT further than it was by making less use of the M68000 and more use of the GPU/DSP. Carmack himself said that too with regards to his Doom conversion.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 22, 2013, 13:13:54 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
7800 i know little about.

32X? VF pretty much pushed that as far as it could go, 3D wise, but i would have loved to have seen how far things could go 2D wise.

Jaguar:I would have loved to have seen Quake finished and games such as Need For Speed and Daytona USa converted (rumours were they would be coming) only then would we really have seen how far machine could be pushed, but everything would depend on just how was handling the conversions from Saturn/3DO in case of last 2.

Would we have seen Jaguar CD games that (technically) were a big leap over likes of Hoverstrike CD/ Fight for Life (in terms of a 3D polygon engine with 2 texture mapped characters), Battlesphere and Battlemorph i wonder? or just improvements in a few areas?

I have been reliably informed by several Jaguar coders that the machine could have been pushed A LOT further than it was by making less use of the M68000 and more use of the GPU/DSP. Carmack himself said that too with regards to his Doom conversion.

Only proof though is in the 'pudding', never seen any shots of Quake on Jaguar.what games did these Jaguar coders do?

I mean claims are fine and dandy, but taking say the saturn, SEGA were at 1 time happy to tell press it had a 64 Bit graphics chip, was a 128 Bit machine due to twin 32 Bit CPU's and 5 co-processors, then there were claims of undocumented DSP's etc etc.

Only real benchmark of any hardware is the games it produces.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: zapiy on May 22, 2013, 13:17:22 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
7800 i know little about.

32X? VF pretty much pushed that as far as it could go, 3D wise, but i would have loved to have seen how far things could go 2D wise.

Jaguar:I would have loved to have seen Quake finished and games such as Need For Speed and Daytona USa converted (rumours were they would be coming) only then would we really have seen how far machine could be pushed, but everything would depend on just how was handling the conversions from Saturn/3DO in case of last 2.

Would we have seen Jaguar CD games that (technically) were a big leap over likes of Hoverstrike CD/ Fight for Life (in terms of a 3D polygon engine with 2 texture mapped characters), Battlesphere and Battlemorph i wonder? or just improvements in a few areas?

I have been reliably informed by several Jaguar coders that the machine could have been pushed A LOT further than it was by making less use of the M68000 and more use of the GPU/DSP. Carmack himself said that too with regards to his Doom conversion.

I am clearly no programmer interms of gaming and i have to agree with your findings fella..

Even now coders tend to really only get to grips with the coding as a system ages.. Given the time i am certain the Jag would have been pushed a lot harder.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 22, 2013, 13:19:26 PM
Also:Pushed where exactly? just what areas are we talking?

A.I/Physics/Polygons/Lighting/sound all of the afore mentioned? All make demands of the hardware, think we need to be careful not to get too caught up in vague terms here, sure code could be optimised, GPU made lot more use of, but just what areas had rich, untapped potential?.

Saturn good example-early on nay sayers said, ohhh under powered in 3D, yet by time of VF2 you had 2 texture mapped characters fighting it out, 60 FPS in machines High Res mode, then things like sonic R pulling off transparent effects, lighting etc people said Saturn could'nt do.to me these examples are where coders are pushing beyond what was considered limits of hardware.

you take say the playstation:

MDK said to be impossible to convert, Pentium PC only-MDK converted and is bloody great.

7 developers say quake is impossible on Playstation, all tried and failed.Hammerhead convert Quake II and it's bloody fantastic.Those are developers pushing hardware.Results, not talk :-)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 22, 2013, 13:45:27 PM
There is a technique on the Jaguar where you can turn off the Motorola 68000 and just code to the GPU and DSP, this was never used in any games because it was considered too buggy. A work around was found several years ago now that stops any bugs from interfering. Even Hover Strike CD, which is widely considered to be the most technically impressive game on the system, uses a fair chunk of 68000 code, less than the cart version though which is where the improvements came from.

The workaround was discovered almost simultaneously by two homebrew coders. Steve Scavone, who programmed Gorf for the Jag and Surround (the first project to use this technique to prove it worked) and Atari Owl who has been working very slowly on the Atari Owl project for a number of years now, a 3D RPG using both polygons and voxels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4K7ABfzMeA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4K7ABfzMeA)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 22, 2013, 15:14:35 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
There is a technique on the Jaguar where you can turn off the Motorola 68000 and just code to the GPU and DSP, this was never used in any games because it was considered too buggy. A work around was found several years ago now that stops any bugs from interfering. Even Hover Strike CD, which is widely considered to be the most technically impressive game on the system, uses a fair chunk of 68000 code, less than the cart version though which is where the improvements came from.

The workaround was discovered almost simultaneously by two homebrew coders. Steve Scavone, who programmed Gorf for the Jag and Surround (the first project to use this technique to prove it worked) and Atari Owl who has been working very slowly on the Atari Owl project for a number of years now, a 3D RPG using both polygons and voxels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4K7ABfzMeA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4K7ABfzMeA)

this method of coding to the GPU and DSP sounds exactly like the way the Jaguar was intended to be coded for, rather than using the 6800 (for anything more than 'housekeeping' tasks).

Hard to tell too much from a 60 sec.clip on youtube, but any idea just what sort of results this has yielded? ie can Jaguar games run for example with double the Polygon count or use textured polys without a huge speed loss where as previousily developers would have had to use plain polys in order to ensure stable frame rate, or can A.I/Physics be more complex?

Just trying to get a 'feel' for what this enables, as coders like Minter treated the hardware differently to others with superb results (Tempest 2000).

Brief comments i saw from coders were along lines of this enabled them to produce games that would shame the ST/Amiga, which i'd have hoped Jaguar could do from the off given the hardware involved.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 22, 2013, 15:21:39 PM
Apparently it can increase the speed of a game/3D engine by up to 25% and is far more efficient.

This is the way the Jaguar was intended to be programmed but the hardware bugs and terrible developer tools put a stop to that. Not to mention lazy coding by people who were used to using the 68k.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 22, 2013, 15:47:24 PM
So just faster F.P.S then?

Getting very wary of Jaguar claims after showing just how misleading the 850 pixels per sec animation, MIP's (Jaguar rated at 55 MIPS, but only 'usefully' runs at around 30) and claims of screens technically possible of 1,000X1,000 (technically possible, but not for games which ran at 320X240 in NTSC mode or 320x287 in Pal mode).

 I really do need to see some shots and or footage of Jaguar Quake to see how far I.D were pushing it.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 22, 2013, 15:54:13 PM
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
So just faster F.P.S then?

Not that simple. Better performance would also allow for more polygons and more textures too among other things.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 22, 2013, 16:15:00 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "Rogue Trooper"
So just faster F.P.S then?

Not that simple. Better performance would also allow for more polygons and more textures too among other things.

Notice the word 'would', now i ask this, as Jaguar performance so often been blamed on the bugs, so now coders have found a solution, i'm keen to hear just what it's allowed that could'nt be done before, just how big a jump in performance have they managed with new coding?

If it's say increase of 5 FPS to a frame rate, that could make a big difference to a previousily sluggish game, if it's higher polygon count and more detailed textures, it could put an end to the claims that the 32X was more powerful than Jaguar in this dept.

Very interested to hear just what is now possible that was'nt before, but so far, things just a little too vague.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 22, 2013, 16:35:49 PM
Simple maths here:

If you use the 68000 you are stuck with a 13.3MHz 16-bit chip hogging a 64-bit bus.

If you use the GPU and DSP you have chips that are double the speed that can both share the same bus and use it at full speed/width.

When you look at it, using the 68k as the main processor in so many games was just insane.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 22, 2013, 16:54:26 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Simple maths here:

If you use the 68000 you are stuck with a 13.3MHz 16-bit chip hogging a 64-bit bus.

If you use the GPU and DSP you have chips that are double the speed that can both share the same bus and use it at full speed/width.

When you look at it, using the 68k as the main processor in so many games was just insane.

Right, so i should be seeing results that show a noticable jump in terms of performance then.


I mean taking say the 32X, i saw inital games like Virtua Racing and Star Wars using plain polygons to texture mapping in games like Metal Head and Darxide as developers tapped into the hardware or Saturn where we went from plain largely untextured polygon fighters in VF, to texture-mapped fighters in VF:remix to Texture-Mapped, running in high res mode, 60 FPS of VF2 as the development tools got better.

So now code is being run off the GPU and not 6800 and DSP, when even something like Hoverstrike CD (which had cleaner textures than 1st gen PSone games), there should be a big increase in performance, yes?.

 
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on May 22, 2013, 17:00:18 PM
Yes, I am lucky enough to have played a demo version of Atari Owl project and it blew everything else on the Jag out of the water. Shame nobody is every going to use those techniques to make a commercial quality game because the best Jaguar programmers have been chased out of the community by all the trolls. Dr. Typo does show some promise with Tube: SE and Fallen Angels though.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 22, 2013, 17:21:56 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Yes, I am lucky enough to have played a demo version of Atari Owl project and it blew everything else on the Jag out of the water. Shame nobody is every going to use those techniques to make a commercial quality game because the best Jaguar programmers have been chased out of the community by all the trolls. Dr. Typo does some promise with Tube: SE and Fallen Angels though.

I'd love to see proper, full on games use the new methods, that way, finally silence the gumf so often written about the Jaguar, until then, demo's alone, no matter how good, will always be open to critiscm to a degree.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Rogue Trooper on May 31, 2013, 19:06:38 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "onthinice"
We have come so far, yet never reach full potential before being abandoned for the next console. :(

I dunno about that, I think systems like the NES, 2600, PS1, Mega Drive and SNES were pushed to their limits.

Systems like the 7800, Saturn, Jaguar, 3DO and 32X weren't though.

Thread bump as found that interview with Lobotomy in SSM, 1 question relates to the above:

SSSM:how much of Saturns power would you say is being used for Duke Nukem?

LOBOTOMY:I would say about 95% or more for this type of game.There are some hardware features of the Saturn we not be touching much at all, as they would'nt apply to this type of game.

They then go onto mention storage space in Ram being a huge challenge for graphics and sound.Speed not so much an issue, as they'd refined their 'Slave driver' game engine since Exhumed, on both Quake+Duke Nukem 3D
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on June 01, 2013, 14:08:49 PM
Here are some more games from the Atari 2600 which really show a dramatic progression:

(http://www.insert-disk.com/images/stories/Atari_2600_Screenshots/Basketball%20(1978)%20(Atari).png)  (http://www.atarimania.com/2600/screens/double_dunk_pal_2.gif)
Basketball (1978) Double Dunk (1989)

(http://s.uvlist.net/l/y2006/06/23139.jpg)  (http://gearmedia.ign.com/gear/image/article/632/632883/atari-flashback-2-to-include-activision-games-20050712052329263-000.jpg)
Adventure (1979) Secret Quest (1989)

(http://www.thommitchell.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/breakout.jpg)  (http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/46921-off-the-wall-atari-2600-screenshot-destroying-bricks-s.gif)
Breakout (1978) Off The Wall (1989)

(http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/agrntoTenX8/hqdefault.jpg)  (http://www.atarimania.com/2600/screens/dark_chambers_pal_3.gif)
Venture (1982) Dark Chambers (1988)

(http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/Golf_2600_ScreenShot4.gif)  (http://www.atarimania.com/2600/screens/my_golf_6.gif)
Golf (1980) My Golf (1990)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: onthinice on June 02, 2013, 01:02:56 AM
The 2600 truly is an amazing system.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on June 04, 2013, 20:53:34 PM
Quote from: "onthinice"
The 2600 truly is an amazing system.

Indeed, the difference between some of the early and late games is just staggering.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TrekMD on June 04, 2013, 21:43:24 PM
Quote from: "The Laird"
Quote from: "onthinice"
The 2600 truly is an amazing system.

Indeed, the difference between some of the early and late games is just staggering.

Night and day!
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on December 11, 2013, 22:44:41 PM
Here are some more games from the Atari XL/XE which really show a dramatic progression:

(http://www.atarimania.com/8bit/screens/aztec_challenge_1983_3.gif)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/atarixlxe/Crownland.jpg)
Aztec Challenge (1982) Crownland (1989)

(http://www.atarimania.com/8bit/screens/stealth_broderbund_6.gif)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/atarixlxe/SpaceHarrier.jpg)
Stealth (1984) Space Harrier (2011)

(http://www.atarimania.com/8bit/screens/moon_patrol_5200_2.gif)  (http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/253668-plastron-atari-8-bit-screenshot-narrowly-missing-the-rockss.png)
Moon Patrol (1982) Plastron (1990)

(http://www.atarimania.com/8bit/screens/alien_asylum_2.gif)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/atarixlxe/BombJake.jpg)
Alien Asylum (1982) Bomb Jake (2008)

(http://www.atarimania.com/8bit/screens/star_raiders_2.gif)  (http://www.retrovideogamer.co.uk/reviews/atarixlxe/StarRaiders2.jpg)
Star Raiders (1979) Star Raiders II (1985)
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Greyfox on December 11, 2013, 22:48:27 PM
Hey mate, the bomb jake image is incorrect, its some other game...

Bomb jake
(http://www.atarimania.com/8bit/screens/bomb_jack_beta_4.gif)

And beside thoses games on the left still gives them a run for the money.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on December 11, 2013, 22:49:06 PM
Erm, what?
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: Greyfox on December 11, 2013, 22:50:35 PM
When I first read the post, the screen shot was different it had some other game screen shot not bomb jake, fixed now...
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on December 11, 2013, 22:53:39 PM
Quote from: "Greyfox"
When I first read the post, the screen shot was different it had some other game screen shot not bomb jake, fixed now...

You probably saw it when I was still editing the template, that will teach you  :10:
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TrekMD on December 11, 2013, 23:26:59 PM
Those are definitely some nice progressions. The Star Raiders vs Star Raiders II is truly amazing side by side.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on December 11, 2013, 23:29:32 PM
Quote from: "TrekMD"
Those are definitely some nice progressions. The Star Raiders vs Star Raiders II is truly amazing side by side.

I think the A8 probably shows a bigger progression than any other system here. You could be forgiven for thinking that the games on the left are from a totally different system to the ones on the right.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TrekMD on December 11, 2013, 23:36:29 PM
I take it the differences come from added memory to the games or were there other features added to make the games better?
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on December 11, 2013, 23:42:04 PM
Quote from: "TrekMD"
I take it the differences come from added memory to the games or were there other features added to make the games better?

Memory is obviously an added advantage, the original machine only had 8k and the last A8's had 128k!!!

But I think that pure coding skill has a lot to do with it too, from the interviews I have been doing recently for Retro Gamer it seems that there are a lot of tricks that can be pulled off on the A8 that were not documented by Atari. Over the years programmers have learned more and more of these that have allowed them to push the machine further and further.

It's funny you know because the first time I owned an A8 I didn't really care for it and that is why I sold it but since I got my XEGS I have totally fallen in love with the machine. I now own a 128k 130XE with tape player and a 800XL with a disk drive too. The A8 is such a magnificent machine and it's quickly becoming one of my favourite machines.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TrekMD on December 11, 2013, 23:44:36 PM
That is very cool.  Programming techniques have clearly advanced as well, even on these older systems.  That was evident with the 2600 as well but it is nice to see that the Atari computers saw this progression as well.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: sloan on December 12, 2013, 03:01:23 AM
Quote from: "Greyfox"
Hey mate, the bomb jake image is incorrect, its some other game...

Bomb jake
(http://www.atarimania.com/8bit/screens/bomb_jack_beta_4.gif)

And beside thoses games on the left still gives them a run for the money.

Weird, I never heard it called Bomb Jake. In US it was Bomb Jack.
Title: Re: We have come so far . . . .
Post by: TL on December 12, 2013, 12:45:45 PM
The original is called Bomb Jack, this is a homebrew version where they changed the name to avoid copyright infringement.